As a Gay Man I will not Date Gay Men who Hate Women

Discussion in 'Dating and Relationships' started by OckyDub, Sep 19, 2016.

  1. OckyDub

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    I always admired sistas brave enough to withstand the heavy dating tide of black men who secretly don’t love black women.

    How treacherous it must be to think you’ve happened upon Mr. Right, only to discover he’s an undercover fraud. Men who claim to love their mama but in the same breath police and devalue women’s bodies. Men who say they want a black wife but don’t honor her unique place within the intersectionality of race and gender.

    I’m sure, for black women, it can often look and feel like a war zone, where the men who look like them not only don’t affirm their humanity but rather terrorize them for simply existing.

    It’s everywhere you turn. From perpetuating stereotypes of the angry black woman or the baby mama and its use to justify why black men date white women to relegating the black woman’s identity to what’s between her thighs rather than what’s between her ears. It’s something we see and hear far too often in hip-hop and popular culture.

    To be clear, not all black men are guilty of such offenses. There are plenty of loving black men who not only adore black women but will go to bat for them in a world that persecutes them for the weighty duality of being both black and a woman. They are fathers. They are husbands. They are brothers. Those men should not only be celebrated but should be a shining example of the beauty in truly having your sista’s back.

    And yet still, far too many women of color have a different, more turbulent experience with black men.

    As much as I empathize with black women, never once did I think about how the toxicity of misogynistic oppression could impact my own dating life as a black gay man living in New York City. That was until I found myself at a crossroads, where another same gender loving man, whom I had been interested in romantically, stopped me dead in my tracks.

    While out for brunch in Harlem, I was stumped when said guy went on an unprovoked rant about black women’s hair.

    “This natural hair movement is getting on my damn nerves… it’s got to stop!” he said, referring to several women in the restaurant who were rocking their natural tresses. “The problem is that they need a damn comb ran through it.”

    I was floored.

    For one, I wasn’t entirely sure where his indignation was coming from. He had essentially declared war on every woman from the African diaspora simply for what grows out of her head. Even more, why does a man who doesn’t even date black women care about how she wears her hair?

    When I peered around the restaurant, I saw no signs of “bad hair” in need of a comb. I saw beautiful queens with variant textures of ravishing hair, who wore them like crowns of honor. Not wanting to cause an argument, I disengaged the one-sided debate and kept my frustrations to myself. I was so caught off guard by his ignorance, and quite honestly, I was not in the mood to school a grown ass man about why his words were problematic.

    Up until that moment, I considered him a strong dating contender. He was an attractive, educated man who seemed to have a good head on his shoulders. By most measures, he was a catch. But all that came crashing down when he opened his mouth.

    In that split moment, I walked away knowing I could never date a man like him. How could I dare entertain the thought of dating a man who does not love black women? While it may have seemed like an obvious deal breaker, it was something I never thought I’d have to consider. Prior to this encounter, I had never experienced another black gay man who had such vitriolic feelings about black women. “Was this guy an anomaly?” I thought. “Or are there others who veil their sexism with a cunning smile?”

    Very rarely are black gay men included in conversations of misogynoir and the sometimes volatile relationship between black men and black women. It’s usually assumed that the perpetrator is heterosexual, particularly because the relationship between black women and black gay men is often portrayed in media as one of friendship or kindred spiritualism.

    But as I learned, intraracial sexism knows no sexual orientation. The black woman’s oppressor can easily be one who has no card or desire in her sexuality. He may shame her for how she looks or bog her down with gender stereotypes and also ignore the hypocrisy in his ability to acknowledge his own oppression but not the oppression of his fellow black woman.

    The black woman’s tale of abuse and contempt is a heartbreaking one that dates back centuries. Once considered queens, black women have been reduced to their physical prowess, rather than celebrated for who they are and all that they’ve endured.

    From the trans-Atlantic slave trade, when they were ripped away from their families, to present day America where black women are burying their men and children on a daily basis: despite this historical context of their abuse and neglect, black women are often abandoned by their male counterparts when they need them the most.

    It is for these very reasons why I have no tolerance for a man — regardless of his race and sexual orientation — who shames a black woman over something as shallow as her hair.

    It’s safe to say, I never again went out with the aforementioned guy, and my dating checklist now has an additional prerequisite. As a black gay man who comes from a long lineage of strong and beautiful African-American women, it is my duty to honor the black woman, even when it comes to who I might invite into my bedroom.

    Because if you can’t love black women as unabashedly as I do, you’re certainly not the man for me.

    Gerren Keith Gaynor is the Homepage and Opinion Editor at theGrio. Keep up with him on Twitter @MrGerrenalist.

    I’m a black gay man who won’t date men who hate black women
     
  2. OckyDub

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    So Black people - both men and women - not liking natural hair means they HATE Black women? I would have easily used that as opportunity to have a conversation, just like I have had with Black men and women on numerous occasions on this very subject. Not liking a perceived fad doesn't equal hating the female species.

    More musing and fake outrage from a queer Black feminist.
     
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  3. Jdudre

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    This is an article that does more harm then good the write just seems to be venting, patting himself on the back or doesn't understand the subject or what his saying fully
     
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  4. ColumbusGuy

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    Horrible article. I will catch hell for this, but it seems that much of this has been brought on by themselves. Who is raising these men to be like this?

    I think black women with natural hair generally look beautiful-there is nothing 'wrong' with black hair....and we started it so I am so sorry for this and apologize.

    Problematic for me:

    -
    'your mama black' -any black man who says anything negative about a black woman has to hate his mother?
    it is mostly other women who police how women look, and what they wear.
    'intersectionality'..*sigh* I have grown to hate this word, along with 'safe spaces', 'triggering', micro-aggressions, etc. Overused to the point of meaninglessness.


    Do people realize that these sayings make them look less intelligent, like they are just quoting from a book or a lecture and they cannot express this in another way that actually looks unlike some rote recitation?

    Only queens or f.a.g.s. are queens. black women are not automatically queens for just being black women. Same with white women, hispanic women, Asian women, and 'Kings' for men either. It is like everyone getting a medal for just existing. Nobody's basic existence makes them worthy of a royal title.

    see above.

    Nobody shames women of any type more than..other women. Apply the same degree of tolerance to any group of women and you will tolerate virtually none of them.

    You should honor people who are worthy of being honored-having a uterus is not a reason to honor any person of any race or color.

    I just can't with this article.

    * also what about the men who rage against the weave and love the natural hair-they get the same shit and they want black women to look like black women-not black women who have a type of hair that is not common for black women to be sitting on top of a black woman's head. If the wig/weave/etc is to protect the hair, etc, then why does it not look like hair that is more natural to black women, and instead looks like the hair of a Korean or Bangladeshi woman rather than a Nigerian or Ugandan woman? To me that is buying into the self-hate and is representative of a bigger problem.


    *This is just my opinion and I admit I am no expert and am not in any way all knowing, so if you feel I am dead wrong on points, show me how and why, and maybe I will be enlightened and change my opinion.
     
    #4 ColumbusGuy, Sep 20, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2016
  5. OckyDub

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    All what you said...
    :lawd:
     
  6. Winston Smith

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    10000% CO-SIGN THIS ARTICLE

    Sorry, I'm the odd man out on this one as I agree withe author. The shit that is imposed on black women for their choice of hairstyles in the workplace is atrocious. The head of my agency is a dark skinned black woman picked by the POTUS. I can only imagine the hell she'd catch even if she thought about sporting fashionable Milli Vanilli or Janet in Poetic Justice type hair. I don't like the pendulum swinging either way, with feminists, particularly white feminists, blaming black men and masculine brothers for the shit that white patriarchy is responsible for; such as these whiny white girls who scribbled shit all up and down the sidewalk in my block (unfortunately, I live by a major university, so: college radicals) about rape culture, catcalls, etc. considering that there are a lot of black East Africans in my neighborhood, many of whom are African black Muslim (NOT Arab). I had to wonder if this was some white left wing undercover immigrant Trump shit in the name of feminism (these Africans are generally married and keep to their own).

    On the other hand, I can't stand gay/bi men who don't have an appreciation for what women go through, ESPECIALLY black women in the professional sphere. There are appropriate arguments about hair and certain professions, I get that. In the military, there was the concern about how beards or long hair, not just from a look standpoint, but an equipment standpoint, could affect gear and safety (i.e. fitting gas masks or other PPE). Outside of that, black women's hair is always politicized in the workplace especially if you ain't "Becky with the good hair" looking. Regardless of being gay/bi, I'm not attracted to brothers who don't respect black women and the shit they go through. Don't care how good looking or Idris-vibe-giving he is, any gay/bi brother with that fucking white male Human Rights Coalition attitude can get the fuck outta my face. I'm a bald, big masculine black man and I can't tolerate that shit and go "ally" for anything my sisters face when it comes to people and their fucked up attitudes in their hair choices.

    And that Mr. Gaynor is a handsome chocolate brother with full lips don't hurt his argument none either lol
    [​IMG]
     
    #6 Winston Smith, Sep 20, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2016
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  7. ColumbusGuy

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    I have no idea if Ocky is in agreement or not. *sigh*.

    Rico. It is hair. And why should anyone give a shit. A black woman should be able to wear her hair anyway she wants. I do understand your point though about 'professional expectations'-just look at that other thread with the dreadlocks smh. But just because a person is not of a hivemind about any group does not mean you do not overall support that group or worse are opposed to that group. Blind support is just that, blind.

    The gay man who wrote that article made a huge leap. Just because one man had a (rather stupid imo) opinion about black women's hair does not mean he hates black women or is an enemy of black women. That is a huge and ridiculous leap to attribute all of the rest of that and to demonize that man for one comment about black women's hair. At least he could have had a conversation with the man to see what exactly was behind that comment. Instead the guy is automatically 'classified' as an enemy of black women.

    Debate? He made what, one (rather dumb imo) statement?

    This is pathetic. So you are afraid of a possible disagreement, so instead of gathering more information in order to make a more informed choice, you opt out and do to him exactly what you 'assume' he is doing to black women? You decide he is demonizing black women from one stupid statement, so you demonize him? smh.

    this. Ask the guy not only about what he said, but how he said it.

    *There are instances where one statement is all that is needed. A racist statement laced with slurs would qualify imo. This does not qualify, and certainly does not qualify for demonizing the man who made the dumb statement and using it as a launching pad for this article.

    People should be respected because they are deserving of that respect, not because they possess some immutable characteristic like a particular skin color. Just as they should not be disrespected for the same reason.
     
    #7 ColumbusGuy, Sep 20, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2016
  8. Winston Smith

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    Not going to go back and forth. What I said, stands for me, nothing else to add. If some fucking gay men can't empathize with what black women go through, fuck em that's their sorry ass problem

    #poorwiddlegaymanmasculinitysofragile
     
  9. OckyDub

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    Once again I agree with all of this. To me it's glaringly obvious.
     
    #9 OckyDub, Sep 20, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2016
  10. ColumbusGuy

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    Well my comments were about the article and the guy posting it. Not what you said really. I don't think my masculinity is all that to begin with, so no big deal about it being fragile.

    How can you be so...no pun intended...black and white? So if you have any disagreement or criticism of anyone at all, you cannot empathize with them at all? It is really like that...all or nothing at all? Wow.
     
  11. ColumbusGuy

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    Damn Rico you appear to be having a 'ColumbusGuy' moment.

    @Ockydub I still have difficulty understanding some of these smilies. It looks like the guy's head is hurting.
     
    #11 ColumbusGuy, Sep 20, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2016
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  12. OckyDub

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    Ridiculous faux outrage and forced perspective.

    I don't like un-kempt dreads on men. I don't like skinny jeans and shaggin pants on men. I don't like 80's hair styles on men. I don't like stupid looking thin hand drawn eye brows on women.

    How does this equal disdain or hatred of Black men or Women? This article is a reaction from a dramatic self identified feminist queer to a person who had the audacity to have a differing opinion on black women's natural hair.

    He IS the same type of fem Black gay dude that if you @Rico was on a date with him and YOU said you liked Cypher Ave, he would label you as HATING FEMS and write a stupid blog article about fem oppressions and the masculine v fem divided all because you have the audacity to have your own views.

    He wrote an opinion piece that could have held on its own merits without using a weak @ss date story that doesn't hold weight and makes him sound like a typical over sensitive queer feminist.
     
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  13. OckyDub

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    LOL that is TD Jakes...and his expression is stating "truth". I was saying I agree with you and IMO you are speaking truth.
     
  14. ColumbusGuy

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    This I take back. This was not a thought out statement on my part. This suggests that black women are at 'fault' for something when I really believe that things beyond the control of black women, from pre-civil rights times to government policies, have left black women(and men) 'trapped' in many ways. So I do take back this statement. Most of what black women have to deal with is inherited, systemic, generational, and beyond their control to where they have limited options and is not imo 'brought on by themselves'-at least as far as I know. I can't really even make a statement like that.

    The rest and the stuff about the article itself and how the author of it responded to the situation stands.
     
  15. BlackguyExecutive

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    I think there is a strong correlation between misogyny and homophobia. I think there is a great deal of men who think women are lesser because they are women. That is misogyny. Misogyny's little brother is homophobia. These same men generally don't like gay men for the same reasons they don't like women.

    I generally agree with the underlying intent of this article. If you date a man who is misogynistic there is a great chance that that man even if he is gay is homophobic or self-hating.

    I also think that misogyny is a learned trait that men & women pick up from other men.
     
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  16. Winston Smith

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    Well, it's nice to know there are professional brothers who get it. As someone who's had labor and collective bargaining law training, as well as written a dress code for a federal agency's field office, it's not just theoretical to me.
     
  17. ColumbusGuy

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    I agree that there is a correlation between homophobia and misogyny. Misogyny from one comment though?
     
  18. BlackguyExecutive

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    I don't one comment can determine is someone is misogynistic but it is a pattern of behavior. A lot of gay men are misogynistic because even though they are gay they benefit from patriarchy. Having a dominance over a woman's body (i.e., unwanted touching) or an entitlement. One comment can be chucked off as ignorance.
     
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  19. Lancer

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    Personally, I would have taken it as a teachable moment. If the writer is conscious about natural hair and the movement, instead of just casting away a guy that he is clearly attracted to, he should have just engaged in conversation and try to figure out why his date felt that way.
     
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  20. OckyDub

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    THANK YOU...it's literally that simple...but the author couldn't do this because a man had the audacity to have an opinion that was different from his; the horror! Not liking what some considered a fad morphs into "hating" black women and a full write up about misogyny and Black women's bodies.

    Look at the numerous threads on The Boards about dreads, natural hair, body types and beards. Everyone gives their opinions or likes or dislikes about the subject and no one attacks them as "hating" or being a misandristic towards Black men over something so trivial.
     
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  21. OckyDub

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  22. Lancer

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    Somethings are not that deep, most of these ''woke'' gays, need to go back to sleep!
     
  23. Winston Smith

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    Essential reading for all the crybaby gay men who get all butt hurt about fem men or women speaking up about hair
     
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  24. ColumbusGuy

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    You seem to be missing the point of the thread-which is the ridiculous leap from the author turning a single statement into 'hating all black women' and now your own leap into this all being about so called crybaby gay men who are now apparently butt hurt over not just black women and their hair but fem men as well. ????? Where is that in this discussion? Where are you getting this from in this discussion?

    I am just surprised at the lack of logic related to your comments and your assertions regarding what has been posted in this thread. Where are you getting this from the comments in this thread? Where is all the butt hurt over fem men and women's hair in this thread? Point it out, dissect it, etc. please-and no 'I am just not going to discuss this bull'. If you make the assertions, then back that shit up.
     
    #23 ColumbusGuy, Sep 23, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2016
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  25. OckyDub

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    Sometimes you got to let folks be. It's the whole forest for the trees thing.

    If IF the dating story was omitted and the article was simply about Black women's bodies and by extension their natural hair...I'm completely on board and AGREE with some of the message but because the interjection of the happenings on the "date" where a person had a dislike and differing opinion, it completely changed the tone and message.

    It confusing to me how this point is missed or purposely overlooked. How do you disagree with someone who is agreeing with you?
     
  26. ColumbusGuy

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    All I am saying is nobody is saying what he says is being said, or reacting in the way he saying, in this thread. Either start a new thread or quit saying stuff in this one-about this one-that is not being said. I will let him be when he lets this thread be. It is what it is.

    Sorry but as related to this thread, that is some bullsh@t going on.

    Nobody is making him post those posts in this thread.

    *Also I agree with much of general message, but disagree with some of it. Nobody polices women like other women. That goes for women of all groups in this nation. JMO. Now why that is...that is another question. Especially for black women-I think it is much more complicated than that-something the message in this story also misses. Again JMO.

    This just buys too much into the narrative that has gone on for decades that black women are all victims and black men ain't shit(but now black gay men ain't shit too). It is just not that cut and
    dried-it is almost never that cut and dried for any groups. Nearly everything is along a spectrum and not sitting firmly at either end of the spectrum. This article is sitting firmly at one end of he spectrum, and I disagree with that finding. Very little is all black or all white-varying shades of gray really. This article is really a form of emotional extremism to me.
     
    #25 ColumbusGuy, Sep 23, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2016
  27. OckyDub

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    LOL hol'on now, I don't think he is off topic to the point where a new thread needs to be initiated and I'm not defending him...well actually I kinda am.

    To be fair, this article muddies the waters which in turn muddies the conversation around it. For the life of me I can't understand why we all can't recognize there aren't any MAJOR disagreements here.

    Like if you read over the comments, there are two different points and neither are in disagreement with each other. This is an aspect about social media that sucks. If we were all in a group face to face this sh!t would have been cleared up in 5 minutes.

    Props though to @Rico @ColumbusGuy @BlackguyExecutive for still keeping the convo going but to me this kinda got unnecessarily twisted.
     
  28. ColumbusGuy

    The 100 Daps Club

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    Yeah I think this is overblown and if we were all talking over drinks in real life there would be no issue so I will just let this thread go. I don't have a problem at all with black women's hair and I certainly think that black women have 'been sinned against FAR far more than they themselves have sinned' and all so there really is no issue for me. *

    *except for Rico basically calling us all a bunch of pussies lol.
     
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