Black Homophobia - an Experiment. This is TOO Funny

Discussion in 'Group Discussions' started by @yahoo.com, Dec 15, 2015.

  1. Jdudre

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    You know none of those actually prove your point all those show is a correlation not cause, which is what an arguing about. Why is it that black people are perceived to be more homophobic then other groups, is it because they are some of then are yes, but once again that is a simple answer one to me that is more dangerous, because it locks people into a box that does not fit then thus causing more problems then helping. Like the high rate of HIV among black men could be because a lot of then can't not escape the stigma of being black in the gay community, when they try to get help they are meet with hostility from other black gays. I remember once when I was in a young men's group there was a guy there that was more "black" then everybody else his manner of talk and dress off putting to a lot of the other guys their so he never came back. I don't know what happened to him but we basically turned him away because he wasn't "gay" enough.
     
  2. Jdudre

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    My questions still stands though when you say black are you talking about everybody in Atlanta, Utah, Main, Florida all the 50 United States, because I know a lot of black people that are just from NYC and all of then are different in regards to their stance on homosexuality and all for different reasons.
     
  3. Cyrus-Brooks

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    I wasn't making any claims about causation. I was merely pointing out the prevalence of homophobic attitudes among black Americans. Papering over the fact that attitudes exist and are very prominent in the African American community overall is obfuscation and does nothing to address the issue.
     
  4. Cyrus-Brooks

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    I see what you're up to. You're trying to obfuscate.
     
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  5. acessential

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    Thanks for that. It's gonna take me more than a quick skim to fully understand the context behind these studies. It's a good start. But even the abstract in one of the studies listed said blacks are more likely to support gay civil liberties than white people. And are more likely to oppose anti-gay discrimination. It shows the complexity of the issue. White folks may smile to your face and then vote to have you rights taken away behind your back. Blacks may shake their heads in disapproval, but they're gonna make sure you have all the rights and privileges as anyone else. At least based on that study.
     
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  6. Cyrus-Brooks

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    That's hardly a ringing endorsement of the black community on this issue. You also underestimate the power of social disapproval.
     
  7. Jdudre

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    I never said those attitude did not existe I know that they do, But like I said before just saying black people are more homophobic does not address the issue either. In fact it does the opposite it makes it into a self fulling prophecy how many of the people that come to this website that don't engage in this debate see the consciences that well yes black people do hate gays. How are they going to feel knowing they have nobody that looks like then to turn too. That even in a website that says its for gay black people, basically lumping black people into a singular ideal. I would guess a lot of confusion and anger would develop because of this. That is why we should look at this from many different angles both the inner ones has well as the outside ones. This is 2015 the world is more connected then ever it is getting more connected everyday what we say here has an impact especially on a lot of gay and non gay men of color.
     
  8. acessential

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    I'm not endorsing either form of homophobia. It's still homophobia at the end of the day. My point being that a person can't definitively say that black people are more homophobic. You have to talk about which metric you're basing it on. And other demographic and generational factors play a role as well.
     
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  9. Jdudre

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    100dap on everything you just said
     
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  10. Cyrus-Brooks

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    Again no one said "all black people hate gays." What was pointed out was that homophobic attitudes are more prevalent among black people. There is plenty of of data to back that up so it is not a self fulfilling prophecy but an acknowledgement of objective reality. Now if you want to drill down into the dirty details of income, region, social class, age and all these other categories fine so be it it still doesn't invalidate what was pointed out. Finally I doubt any straight men are on this site listening in on what we're saying but even if they are I'm not gonna self censor to appease them.
     
    #45 Cyrus-Brooks, Dec 15, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2015
  11. Cyrus-Brooks

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    Yes I can say black people tend to be more homophobic if there are multiple surveys and studies that show more black people have negative attitudes towards homosexuality than other groups. That is an objective measurement. Breaking black people down into subcategories by age for example doesn't change that were talking about black people as a whole. Also as far as I know there are no studies that show the attitudes of black people under 30 relative to other ethnic groups under 30 so there is no way to say young black people are less homophobic than other groups. It just shows young black people are less homophobic than their elders.
     
  12. Redlove333

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    Most of today's rap music is back as hell....besides one has a curl and they all participated for $100.00
    really......I'm #DEAD as well
     
  13. Jdudre

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    But that is what a lot of peoples might take away from it with out any real context, especially if there not in the right frame of mind like depressed, or somebody that is looking to validate there own feelings of either self hate or or superiority. You don't know who is looking at this website it could be somebody that is doing research for their child, for themselves or just to see what the "Gays" are up to and I am not asking you to self censor to appease anybody, but you should be aware that Just saying black people are more homophobic then everybody with out any real reason as to why.... is like you said before dangerous. I used to go to website like this all the time and "lurk" and this topic would come up and this conversion would come up. It would mostly follow the logic that a lot of the people here would have and it would fuck me up mental, seriously this is why I say that fighting homophobia in the black community is a complex thing and just to say black people are more homophobic without thought especial in a public forum should be thought about.
     
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  14. Cyrus-Brooks

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    I'll agree with you that context is important but ignoring results of surveys in this subject is nonsensical to me. People will always seek out things to validate their point of view especially on the internet because that's what people do. It's human nature. Since many of the straight people of the homophobic variety want nothing to do with anything gay. I highly doubt they're lurking here if they even know this site exists. But even if that is the case I'd bet $20 they're saying far worse things about us than we're saying about them, I guarantee you that. To me your rationale for being nice about this subject on this forum to be dubious.
     
    #49 Cyrus-Brooks, Dec 15, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2015
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  15. Jdudre

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    I am not saying to be nice just more aware of who is reading what your typing. It does not have to be a homophobe it could be a little black boy who is confused about himself . This site does talk about a lot of none gay subject matter, which is why I love it and why I am still on this topic. once upon of time I was that little black boy looking for other gay people like me on the web and I mostly fond sex sites and when I would find a site that claimed to cater to gay people it would either be all about white people. When it would be a black site it would not always be health especially for somebody that does not have the right "look" to consider attractive in the black gay world. Many homophobic people according to studies are people that they themselves fear that they might be gay so they go out in search of gay people.
    http://www.shrink-friendly.co.il/tau/article/homophobia.pdf
    Internalized homophobia and health issues affecting lesbians and gay men
    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/29/opinion/sunday/homophobic-maybe-youre-gay.html?_r=0
    I don't like putting up studies because to actually read a study you need to be able to understand what that study is looking for, saying, and how it got it's answers to me when people do it its away of trying to end the conversation.
    Pleas don't take offense at the last part its just something that gets under my skin as somebody that is basically learning about this stuff when people just pull then out especially during just a regular conversion online.
     
  16. Cyrus-Brooks

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    Gay kids coming up now actually have much more positive information out there they can access. When I was growing up during the dark ages there was nothing. Everything I learned about myself was negative. So it's hard for me to accept your reasoning on this matter. I posted the studies and surveys because @acessential asked for some empirical information. That said I don't take offense we just disagree. We simply have totally different perspectives.
     
  17. Jdudre

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    Yes and no with regards to being black, gay, and masculine a subject this very site deals with on a daily base it is very iffy. Lets not forget the sad state of black gay love in the media in general that is not tied to some form of overt sexuality and this is coming from some one who subscribes to almost every tumbler out there about black gay men. SO while it has gotten a whole lot better i wouldn't say its at a place where we should think were compltely safe heck almost all the republicans running for office have said something negative to say about gay and black people and it has not slowed then down and that is not even touching on the other stuff that is happing I am not even talking about the crazy am blacker then you people either.
    The studies thing was not directly directed at you per say its just something I've seen people do which as always struck me as odd because the only time I ever use then is for papers or to generate ideas for papers.
    I understand I just tend to be a bit sensitive to things like that
     
  18. Nick Delmacy

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    So...Black gay men need "hard evidence" that black homophobia exists...

    :childplease: :camby:
     
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  19. acessential

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    I haven't looked at the study entirely, so I don't even know if everything is even sound. But assuming that it is, you can draw that conclusion based on the results. But you would be completely ignoring other substantial aspects of the study. It's kinda like saying that it's better to make $100,000 living in California versus $90,000 living in Georgia. $100,000 is objectively larger than $90,000 but there are plenty of other factors in play. Cost of living, etc. I digress.

    @Nick Delmacy Of course black homophobia exists. I never denied that. But if someone is going to make such a concrete claim that black people are just more homophobic than everyone else like it's an objective fact, of course I'm gonna challenge it because it requires more than just a couple of anecdotes. My experience as a black gay man in this country is different than yours or other guys on this site. And I don't want to negate any homophobic experiences you or anyone else has had from black people. But saying that there's homophobia in the black community is different than saying homophobia in the black community is the worst.

    The last thing I will say on this topic is, I will continue to critique black homophobia. But I will not sit and support a racist narrative that we're worse at it than everyone else. It is way more complex than that.
     
  20. Nick Delmacy

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    Bruh, but even you would have to concede that MOST of the black community does not have the same experience as you...You've spent a good chunk of your adult life on a non-English speaking continent. @ockydub spoke about this on the last podcast, many black gay men view the world from the specific prism of their own lives and experiences. You're obviously doing that all throughout this thread.

    I doubt an 1800's slave could provide concrete data that predominant white racism existed, but that doesn't mean that that it wasn't true.

    Think outside of your identity affirming bubble. It doesn't make you LESS pro-black to believe that its possible for black people to be more flawed in some way than other groups of people when it comes to homosexuality.
     
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  21. ControlledXaos

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    The original post's video mentioned movies.

    Remember last year when Dear White People was in theaters and many black people in the audiences lost their sh!t when the same sex kisses happened? Yet when there is a same sex kiss in predominantly white movies that are mostly attended by white people, the complaints are barely noticed. As unscientific as that is, it does appear that culturally, black people are proportionately more homophobic than other groups.

    In the video I'd like to believe that some of the guys who walked off probably did so because they didn't want the other strangers to think they were gay too. Add in cameras and the way people love to make people "Gay by Association" if they were not in fact gay themselves, I can understand them wanting to leave. However I'm wondering if the extras were fewer or in one on one situations if they'd be more accepting. Cameras make people nervous because everything lives forever on the Internet.

    Yusef Mack is another example. His circle was cool with him up to a point and he had to ask people why they were acting different towards him and it was all because they found out he was gay. There's plenty of people who have had sex on camera and you can best believe that wasn't the issue because had he been in a hetero porn scene, his "boys" would have been asking him how it was.

    So, no, these are not studies with hard evidence but these situations and my experience lead me to believe that black people, for whatever reason(s), are more homophobic than other ethnic groups. If not, they are a lot expressive on the subject.
     
    #56 ControlledXaos, Dec 16, 2015
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  22. Nick Delmacy

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    I believe these anecdotes matter and should be telling the detractors something, at the very least. Why is there this common theme in so many black gay experiences and perspectives? It's because it true, it exists.

    Regardless, I'll just leave this here:

    [​IMG]


    Support for Same-Sex Marriage at Record High, but Key Segments Remain Opposed

    :kermit:
     
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  23. Cyrus-Brooks

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    Again your misrepresenting the argument being made. What you're doing is parroting the false narrative used by homophobic black people that black gay men are somehow blowing homophobia in the black community outta proportion or that we're advancing the claims of racists. But I stand by what I have said and repeat it.

    "I can say black people tend to be more homophobic if there are multiple surveys and studies that show more black people have negative attitudes towards homosexuality than other groups. That is an objective measurement. Breaking black people down into subcategories by age for example doesn't change that were talking about black people as a whole. Also as far as I know there are no studies that show the attitudes of black people under 30 relative to other ethnic groups under 30 so there is no way to say young black people are less homophobic than other groups. It just shows young black people are less homophobic than their elders"

    I provided you with data and @Nick Delmacy provided you with data and you still choose to obfuscate. Sorry but your not gonna talk your way out of this one.
     
  24. BlackguyExecutive

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    I think what is being presented here is not comprehensive enough. I think that some of the arguments that are being made here are limited in scope, there are many variables to potentially think about here, age, demographics, regional attitudes, whether or not one has an immediate family member who identifies as something on the LGBTQ - SGL specturm etc. There is a significant portion of Americans and a growing number of Black Americans who are more openly secular etc. All of these factors should be included in the discussion. Unfortunately, we have from time to time made fun of Queer Studies scholars and others researchers (which in the grand scheme of academic and research scholarship is relatively small group of individuals) who actually study these questions and explore empirical evidence to prove or disprove assertions. I don't think that Blacks are more prone to being homophobic and when we use clarifiers such as "MOST" I am immediately skeptical.
     
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  25. Nick Delmacy

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    Bruh, I'm not sure why this debate is even needed on a Website SPECIFICALLY created because black gay men were being pushed into the shadows by their own black community.

    Imagine this same discussion on a heterosexual white message board: I promise you that the conversation would be more civil and would have less disdain and vitriol than on a predominantly heterosexual black message board.

    This need for more data and evidence than what has already been provided sounds a lot like Fox News and the GOP responding to Black Lives Matter, Sexual Harassment in the workplace, Racial Discrimination, Police Brutality, Gun Control, Climate Change, etc...
     
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  26. Cyrus-Brooks

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    There is already plenty of data out there that shows black people tend to be more homophobic than other ethnic groups. Even secular blacks invent reasons for justifying homophobic attitudes which aren't couched in religion. Umar Johnson is perfect example this phenomenon. I'm now convinced no amount of data will satisfy you or @acessential if it doesn't fit your narrative.
     
    #61 Cyrus-Brooks, Dec 16, 2015
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  27. BlackguyExecutive

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    Here is my understanding of the narrative. Black people are more homophobic than other groups of homophobic people (Premise). Yes. Black people are homophobic, there is no question. I just don't see how we can suggest that black people are MORE homophobic (Answer). The math does not add up. Our perceived experiences could be the cause of our projected claims (Qualifier). As a black gay man, I have dealt with my fair share of homophobia at the hands and thoughts and actions of black people and white people, family members and random strangers. It wasn't the baptist church delivering petitions getting anti-equality laws on the books. It wasn't the baptist church filing claims in state and federal courts. How many black mothers do you know led marches to close chapters of gay-straight alliances. How many black families do you know sent their kids to conversion therapy? How many of the men on these boards were sent away to be changed? I think black homophobia is largely manifested in ways that our either unacknowledged or rooted in unsubstantiated claims many that have been disproven by organizations like the Center for Disease Control or American Medical Association or the American Psychiatric Association. Black people like to pretend there isn't a problem while white people actively and aggressively work to correct a problem. But sure, black people are more inherently homophobic despite the levels of aggressive corrective action.
     
    #62 BlackguyExecutive, Dec 16, 2015
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  28. Cyrus-Brooks

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    I've had discussions and debates with straight black people on many occasions about the subjects homosexuality and homophobia in the black community. Every single time I'm met with hostility, threats, vitriol, accusations of black gay people are liars, exaggerating claims of homophobia, "homophobia doesn't exist," or black gays "agents of the white man." No matter how rational or thoughtful I am at shooting down their arguments what it still comes down to is I get called a "faggot." So I'm not letting the black community off the hook on this one. If others want to kowtow and make excuses that on you. But I'm gonna tell the truth about how most people in the black community really behave when it comes to the subject of homosexuality especially homosexual black men.
     
    #63 Cyrus-Brooks, Dec 16, 2015
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  29. Cyrus-Brooks

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    Again I have to disagree the black church is quick to get in bed with white "conservatives" on this issue and many black pastors have come out against things like same-sex marriage and in support of laws banning same-sex marriage and they couch it in the idea that homosexuals are "destroying the black family." Everyone in the church says amen and agrees.
     
  30. BlackguyExecutive

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    OK. Let say I accept your claim of the black church being allied with white evangelicals on the fundamental issue of being Anti-homosexual. What percentage of that represents a majority of black America? Does the black church still holistically represent the black experience? If so, is there age discrepancies among that particular demographic? Sure my grandma (who is not overtly homophobic) has a different understanding of homosexual over my more secular and younger mother (who was sitting in the front row of her openly gay sons wedding). Is that experience outside the scope of the norm?

    As America grows more secular which it is heading that way we will be looking back and saying "remember that time when it was the blacks that were the most homophobic." But I guess I am one of those black openly gay men who believe that coming out matters and that people's fundamental beliefs systems can be challenged. Lastly, on this topic, I just don't think that 13% of the population can be MORE homophobic since 3-5% of that 13% identify as some kind of LGBT either openly or secretly. But maybe we including that internalized homophobia as well. But at the end of the day, there are black homophobes and white homophobes and people in the middle area (mostly indifferent).
     
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  31. Cyrus-Brooks

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    Also a couple of points I forgot to mention about black families not sending their gay kids too conversion therapy, that's because many if not most black families are too poor to send their kids to any type of therapy. But they do push the idea you can "pray the gay away" and that "Jesus can fix it." Also as I said before the idea that black people aren't as homophobic because they don't pass laws against gay people is ridiculous. Of course they don't. Black people don't have any real power in the USA. We don't even politically control the areas where we live. So it makes sense that white people are making the laws. But as I said before in black majority countries where black people make the laws(like the Caribbean and sub-Saharan Africa) the punishments and discrimination against gay many times more harsh than in most of the western world and anti-gay attitudes are even more ubiquitous. But of course this the part where the excuses get made. "It's complicated."
    [​IMG]
     
    #66 Cyrus-Brooks, Dec 16, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2015
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  32. BlackguyExecutive

    BlackguyExecutive Je suis diplomate
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    Many of the most extreme anti-gay legislation has been pushed by White Evangelical Westerners, primarily Americans. Particularly in Western and Sub-Africa.

    The most valid point you made has been the political and economic presentation. Those same African countries receive development aid from RELIGIOUS non-governmental organizations. MONEY Talks. The Caribbean and African anti-gay is rooted in WESTERN Influence. Unlike, the Middle East is pure religious dogma. Russian anti-gay aggression is more geopolitical than religious (although Orthodoxy plays a role).
     
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  33. Cyrus-Brooks

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    Your make sure some good points but the argument being made is the majority of 13% African American population still has homophobic attitudes how that breaks down according to age, religiosity, and other factors is another discussion. But even when you control for age it's not certain that your claim holds up.


    I don't dispute that at all but the fact that white evangelicals can so easily come in and exploit fears already present is telling. Homophobic ideas were introduced to Africa centuries ago when Abrahamic religions were imposed by whites and Arabs. Also the western influence you talk about is religious, Christian to be exact. But we're not talking about causation you're changing the subject. Also Russia irrelevant to our current conversation.
     
  34. Tyroc

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    Social experimentation time!

    Take 6 gay black men in pairs to different cities around America.
    Find predominantly white neighborhoods and predominantly black neighborhoods. Have a masculine couple, a feminine couple and one of each for the final couple and from a distance record each showing different levels of affection towards one other and either elicit opinions or watch the reactions and actions of people around.
    Might be very dangerous but also extremely enlightening.
     
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  35. OckyDub

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    Obamy2.png That some good shit right here....
     
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