Spiritualism: An Existential Quandary

Discussion in 'Race, Religion, Science and Politics' started by blk_universe, Nov 14, 2015.

  1. acessential

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    To me, spirituality is something intangible. It's an abstract concept. It's a thought. It's a feeling. It's not some set of doctrine you must follow or an explanation of processes in the universe. It's just there. You see how difficult it is for me to even describe it. I think this is the exact reason why this conversation won't go anywhere. People try to understand and explain spirituality through concrete concepts. I don't think that's possible thanks to the very nature of what spirituality is.
     
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  2. blk_universe

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    lol. What do you mean by side ways and when did I start moving there?
    I only said strict reliance on faith is harmful, but of course strict reliance to any kind of teaching has the potential for harm. I'm not sure what other teaching exist besides man made ones? Unless you're talking about life lessons or personal lessons, but those are things learned and not taught. Once you go out and share what you've learned then you become a teacher. I believe man made teachings require doubt, that's why I brought up science and rational thinking because they do not deal in absolutes (aside from logical ones). On the other hand, faith doesn't require doubt (even though there are faithful people who have doubt), it is an affirmation of a belief without grounding, e.g. "the leap of faith".

    I hope a was able to correct my side way status and bring clarity to any confusion that I may have caused you. I shake your too, good sir!
     
  3. Jdudre

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    Your right about the buddhists thing , but from what i can tell that narrow band of organization is what separates it. As far as the rest i will get back to you on that.
     
  4. Jdudre

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    Your right, but its fun talking about it though.
     
  5. blk_universe

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    Religion is also a philosophy, which doesn't require a God even though it usually does. In regards to Buddhism you are talking about deism,which is the belief that a higher power governs the universe. A higher power is a very vague term but it is limited in the sense that it isn't the belief of a superior being, which is very specific, or no higher power whatsoever, which falls more in line with atheism. The buddha may not have been regarded as a god by most, but he is considered to be something beyond human. By this I mean he was able to obtain something, Nirvana or Enlightenment, that allowed him access to a higher state of being. There are still huge debates and different schools of taught (Hindus, Buddhists, etc) on this, but my point is that his teachings allude to a super natural realm or state of being that allowed him to the "one truth" as to why human beings suffer; this is obtainable through a specific performance or a renunciation of the aesthetic.
     
  6. blk_universe

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    I wouldn't feel qualified as to what constitutes a true Christian, but given the fact that Christianity has pagan roots, I don't see why someone couldn't be a christian (a believer in jesus) and a Wiccan.

    Those things are products of the mind and we both agree on. Where my contention lies is in what you claim as the root of the intangible i.e. a super natural or god. Unless I missed something, isn't that what you were saying, that god (however you define) is what governs the physical processes of your brain?
     
  7. blk_universe

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    Then why call it spirituality? Couldn't you call it a thought or having feelings? I think people try to explain it because they would like to believe that there thoughts or feelings connect them to something else, something super natural, which why I began this thread in the first place.
     
  8. blk_universe

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    Fair enough. BTW, cool profile pic.
     
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  9. Jdudre

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    Thanks am old school X-Men especially the tv show is my sweet spot.
     
  10. grownman

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    "What do you mean by side ways and when did I start moving there?"

    Meaning, I felt like you were trying to stick your chest out. (In my head) You started moving there when I disagreed with you and my other friend. I was trying to not to come for you like-you were some stupid ass internet troll. We are/were having a healthy debate and not to allow my emotions to get in the way. I have enjoyed talking to all of you guys.

    "I only said strict reliance on faith is harmful, but of course strict reliance to any kind of teaching has the potential for harm."

    Exactly. I can admit that various religions and spiritual practices have done harm. Most more psychological than anything.

    "I'm not sure what other teaching exist besides man made ones? Unless you're talking about life lessons or personal lessons, but those are things learned and not taught. Once you go out and share what you've learned then you become a teacher."

    When I spoke about man made teachings-they were all the ones you are referring to. Any that man have come up with in order to enslave , abuse or brainwash another person for their own agenda.

    "On the other hand, faith doesn't require doubt (even though there are faithful people who have doubt), it is an affirmation of a belief without grounding, e.g. "the leap of faith".

    Eeeh. I am not so sure about that-if I am to "leap blindly"-their will be plenty of doubt. Lol.

    "I hope a was able to correct my side way status and bring clarity to any confusion that I may have caused you."

    Absolutely, you have given me something constructive to do online besides looking at dating sites or listening to a bunch of fuckery. Sorry, ever since a friend of mine introduced me to that word. I have been saying it left and right.
     
    #45 grownman, Nov 15, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2015
  11. blk_universe

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    Oh man!! Whenever I think of that show, I can here the epic guitar intro playing in my head and the kid in me wants to grab a bunch of plastic knives!!!
     
  12. blk_universe

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    Meaning, I felt like you were trying to stick your chest out. (In my head)
    Oh no! That's not like me at all. I mean I am very confident in what I believe, but not to the point where I am hostile to other people and if am, I try my hardest to correct my tone. I can understand why you felt the way you did. I think I am just a passionate person lol

    Most more psychological than anything.
    I'm not sure about that one but I don't have the numbers to back up my contention. So I'll lay down on that point lol

    Any that man have come up with in order to enslave , abuse or brainwash another person for their own agenda.

    I wasn't referring to anything too specific. Mostly scientific rationalism but science has been used to brainwash the masses, although an argument can be made that it isn't necessarily the fault of science but those who employ it for their own diabolical means.

    Eeeh. I am not so sure about that-if I am to "leap blindly"-their will be plenty of doubt. Lol.
    I wasn't talking about you lol. I mean the concept of the leap of faith is that you don't need to doubt since your faith is what supports you, more or less. I could be wrong though. lol

    Absolutely, you have given me something constructive to do online besides looking at dating sites or listening to a bunch of f**kery. Sorry, ever since a friend of mine introduced me to that word. I have been saying it left and right.
    Lmao! That word is so necessary and so accurate. I 100% support you using it left, right, up, down, forward and back!!!
     
  13. grownman

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    Lol. I knew you weren't talking about me specifically. I chose to insert myself into that.

    As far as, my F-Bombs. I thank you for your understanding. You are alright with me.
     
  14. DreG

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    Ron Wasserman is one of my heroes! His music made my childhood.
     
  15. tigerbreaux

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    I was interested in this thread, but it's way too long for me to read, so I'll just give my opinion.

    I am a scientist by training, and I am religious by birth, but I stayed by choice. I think being a scientist helped me come to better terms with my religion. I don't believe in everything that is taught in the church and I have my own thoughts and beliefs, but that doesn't turn me away from the stability and institution of religion as whole.

    One problem I tend to have with both sides is intolerance. Other scientists sometimes completely write off religion, which is their choice, but they try to correct, disprove and condescend toward those that believe. Conversely, religious people are always trying to condemn people who don't believe (and others) to hell. I believe in both, I have found a happy balance with both, and I ok with what others believe or don't believe, just leave me out of it and leave me alone lol.

    I can understand why people don't subscribe to religion, there's aspects that I don't agree with, but to me organized religion is bigger than the sum of it's parts. That's why a lot of people are spiritual or agnostic, they believe in something, but they'd either rather practice on their own or don't feel they have enough evidence to pinpoint it. For me, spiritualism isn't structured enough and is lonely, I need that support and "guidance" from others to help supplement what I already believe or am lacking in. Just like a scientists bounces off theories etc with others.
     
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  16. Kouncelor

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    Well said.
     
  17. Michael

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    When someone says they are spiritual I take that as they have a general belief in what some of us call supernatural, etc. I find that those people don't really come off as arrogant as people that refer to themselves as religious. Religious people (generalization) feel they have some truth that they have to force on everyone else. It is their duty to spread the word. Of course, this isn't everyone, but they are the ones that put a bad taste in my mouth and in actuality do the opposite of what they are trying to do. They turn people off.
     
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  18. blk_universe

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    Interesting. I just have a few questions:
    1.What exactly is the happy balance that you have found between science and religion?
    2.What do you mean by "support and guidance from others"? and
    3.How are you connecting that with how scientist "bounce" theories with others?
     
  19. blk_universe

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    What do you think religious people are trying to do?
     
  20. Michael

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    Bring more people to Christ, or however they want to word it.
     
  21. tigerbreaux

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    1. I believe in evolution & I also believe in creationism. I believe in The Big Bang, but I also believe in God created the universe...using the Big Bang.
    2. Church member encourage you, pray for you, he;p you when times are rough. I can call my pastor, he visits you when you're sick and can offer insight and wisdom in an elder sort of way.
    3. What do you mean? Everyone that's religious isn't a zealot or an idiot lol. There are people with PhDs (and not in theology) that believe in God. People can talk to each other and enhance their faith with the science. For instance, it took someone in science, who was religious to help me see the religion and art in science. Look at the structure of the atom, how if it were slightly a few mm different it wouldn't be the same atomic structure. How everything in the human body works in perfect harmony and how one aspect can affect something completely different. There's a beauty and an art to science, there's no way all of that could've happened haphazardly. Also, look at nature. I was in Ireland and saw some of the most beautiful landscape I had ever seen, you can't tell me a higher being didn't design that, everything was perfectly placed and picturesque.
     
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  22. tigerbreaux

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    Not all religious people are created equal. lol
     
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  23. blk_universe

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    I am going to try and be as respectful as possible to you as I can be, but I have some issues with you said.

    1. Creationism and evolution are two opposing ideas. Science can answer how life came to be on this planet , with evidence (theory of evolution), and without the need of some being who started it all. That, by the way, can not be proven by any scientific means. You can have all the faith you want but that does not count as evidence. Creationism IS NOT SCIENCE. It is a belief that's supported by faith and no creationist theory has ever been validated by the scientific community. These are facts of life. I want to you know that I respect your right to believe in what you want but I cannot respect the belief that Creationism is a science.
    2. I wholeheartedly love that you have that kind of support system in your life and I am thankful that you find solace in that. I myself grew up in a christian/muslim home and have fond memories of the religious communities that I was apart of. Although, that all changed the minute they found out my sexuality, but that's not really relevant at the moment.
    3. Yes, you can be a scientist and believe in God. Those things are not mutually exclusive. However, if you claim that God is the reason for the structure of the atom, you're not going to be able to prove that using science. But that may not be your intention. I'm not sure what this perfect harmony of the human body you are referring to is, but the human body is a system. That system works, but it's not perfect. Otherwise, we would never get sick or die, but I digress.
    I can't claim to know why the atom is structured the way it is, but you are making guesses if you claim that it was "created" that way. Moreover, if you start making arguments that involve "there's no way all of that could've happened haphazardly" you are making an argument from ignorance (that isn't an ad hominen or a personal attack on you). What that amounts to is: I can't think of any other way it could have been, therefore it is X. I can tell you that a higher being probably didn't make all of that but you can't prove to me that a higher being exists, or even if it did exist, prove that it is the designer of the supposedly perfect and picturesque world that you live in. I'll let you answer, since I've said a lot. I'll just end with this: it's not my intention to offend you personally. We are discussing ideas and not all ideas are equal. I could be wrong and I look forward to continuing a healthy and productive dialogue with you. If not, that's cool too.
     
  24. blk_universe

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    But aren't we all equal in the eyes of God? lol
    You don't have to answer that if you don't want to. I was making half a joke and half of serious inquiry.
     
  25. blk_universe

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    Well if you understand their religion, I can understand why they do what they do. For some Christians, salvation is a serious business.
     
  26. alton

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    To each his/her own, Brotha. I tend to agree with a lot you say about religion, but I also notice a condescending tone to your comments as well, dude. Everybody believes (or not believes) in something to help them cope with day to day life in their ways, as everyone deals with their lives in their own way. As long as they're not pushing an agenda that hurts someone else, then we should let them do them. I hold your opinion about many other groups and the shi!t they do, as well. Like, why do majority of black and latin folk seem to wanna be rappers or sports playas instead of striving for something in the medical/law/professional fields? Eh, because to them that the quickest and easiest way for them to potentially achieve their goal and possibly help out their families, thus help them cope with their issues. I only harbor your disgust for the Abrahamic Religions, personally, as they're the ones that have done and are DOING the most damage worldwide. But even now I'm just like f@$k it, if they like it I love it, dude. The world as a whole is beginning to {slowly} move away from religious beliefs and sooner than later, all of us "Archaic Dinosaurs" will all be gone, and the world will (most likely) be a much better place. lol
     
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  27. tigerbreaux

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    See, right here is where you lose me lol. What do you mean try to be respectful? There's no reason for you not to be. I am not the spokesperson for any religion and these are my personal beliefs. So, while you don't have to agree, you should respect my opinion, or just leave the conversation alone. Normally I would've stopped reading at this point (because at this point the New Orleans in me would want to come out and have be get real rude real quick), but I'm getting better, so I shall proceed lol.

    1. I know what science is, I have a bachelor's and master's of science to credit. I never said creationism in and of itself was a science, I said I personally have been able to bridge a gap between the two, as it pertains to my life, my profession, and my religion.

    I don't really understand the point of this whole rebuttal. Actually I do, it's the fact that it is a rebuttal in the first place that I don't understand. I was giving my opinion and belief, that's not up for debate because I never passed either off as fact. There's a certain level of condescension and smugness here that doesn't sit right with me, but I'm going to try to let that slide. The bottom line is this, I never tried to prove to you, or anyone else that a higher being exists, so for you to try to insinuate to me that one doesn't is kind of disrespectful. Whatever misgivings you have with religion is your business. No, I cannot prove to you that a higher being exists, but you can't prove that one doesn't exist either. There's a saying that goes "I'd much rather believe in something and find out that it wasn't true, than to not believe in something and out I was wrong."

    In the end, I'm not a zealot or fanatic, I don't use my religion to stifle or hinder anyone else, and it brings great joy to my life and is a PERSONAL belief and relationship at the end of the day. Most of my friends are either agnostic or atheist and that's okay, we both respect each others beliefs.

    As far as your post is concerned, while I wholeheartedly believe it wasn't your intent to offend, I also don't necessarily believe it was to gain insight into another viewpoint either, because rather than acknowledge viewpoints, you challenge them in a rather defensive way, which turns most people off from expressing themselves. That brings me back to one of my very first points "One problem I tend to have with both sides is intolerance. Other scientists sometimes completely write off religion, which is their choice, but they try to correct, disprove and condescend toward those that believe..."

    Just reflect on that for future interactions, because everyone isn't so understanding.
     
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  28. blk_universe

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    I brought up the the respect point because I wanted you to know that I can have respect for you regardless of your personal belief (depending on the belief of course). Telling me that I have to respect your belief or avoid the conversation altogether, sounds like a false dichotomy. It is possible that your personal beliefs may adversely affect the way you see the world and hinder your chances for learning a different way to see the world. I am not saying that it does but that I like to think that conversations are about learning. All I was suggesting that by discussing our viewpoints on our different beliefs (which include the possibility of us having opposing beliefs) we may come to an understanding that neither of us thought possible.

    1. I do concede and apologize for making the assumption that you believed creationism to a be a science. That is an example of me learning not to assume and to make further inquiry before I start making claims about your belief. Which I never asked, but I'm very curious to know now. Although, I completely understand why wouldn't want to discuss that with me. Also, before I further put my foot deeper in mouth, I think you should look at your 3rd point. You made assumptions about what I was asking as well as several claims about science BUT I could have misread

    I am not sure what issue you with my response to your point regarding what religion does for you. It wasn't a rebuttal, it was a moment where I believed I could truly connect with you. Maybe you didn't see that because you were upset with me, and rightfully so, about my first response, which is completely reasonable and I again apologize for the assumption. I never insinuated that God doesn't exist, just that you couldn't prove it me (part of my belief) and I don't know how that could be disrespectful. I never claim nor would claim to know that God doesn't exist, my hubris only goes so far lol. Kudos on throwing in Pascal's Wager but that wager leads to a lot of issues if you apply universally i.e. to every possible belief lol.

    I can see that I went astray in the way I conducted this discussion, but my intention was to provoke a discussion about beliefs and I'm realizing that that's not an easy task. You have every right to defend your belief but that in no one implies that I am attacking you and the moment you feel like I am, tell me.

    Well I guess you already did lol.
     
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