To Anti-Bernie Folks: Where To Invade Next

Discussion in 'Race, Religion, Science and Politics' started by BrentForays, Jun 7, 2016.

  1. jpo

    jpo
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    Wow - a great find. I remember this campaign, the whole Democratic field that year was wild, a generational battle. Chisholm stood apart, focused on her issues and message.
     
  2. OckyDub

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    Really enjoy the doc I saw about her years ago during Cynthia McKenny's run
    [​IMG]
     
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  3. jpo

    jpo
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    Sadly, though, McKinney was no Shirley Chisholm. That said, there is no doubt that her Congressional career was ended by a well-financed, carefully orchestrated campaign by people determined to make her pay for her stand in support of Palestine.
     
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  4. Nick Delmacy

    Nick Delmacy is a Verified MemberNick Delmacy Da Architect
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    It's no secret that I'm not a #BernieBro but initially I thought he had a great deal of integrity and passion....now I see he's really just a hypocrite in a lot of ways. I do find it odd that Bernie and Trump supporters love pointing out the hypocrisy and inconsistencies of Hillary Clinton and "The Establishment" yet they give a bind eye to the typical political prowess and stubbornness of their own candidates.
     
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  5. Winston Smith

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    THIS. Which is why it's hard for me to commit to any political party. People can see the fault in everyone else's star but their own. It reminds me of Reagan's press secretary, Lyn Nofziger. A lot of Republicans thought he didn't sufficiently genuflect or defer to Reagan's position as an automaton. As he said in an interview, if a person totally agrees with a party or candidate, there's a problem with that person, that candidate or both.
     
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  6. OckyDub

    OckyDub is a Verified MemberOckyDub I gave the Loc'ness monstah about $3.50
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    Him trying to flip super delegates that pledged their allegiance to Hillary last year (before any Americans voted) after decrying the super delegate process; I get. The issue with the tax returns...get that too...but stubbornness? Was Clinton stubborn, passionate, a fighter, tough, etc when she ran back in 2008 and leaked pics of Obama in traditional Muslim clothing to Fox and other media outlets? Do you think this was racist? What message do you think she and her husband were attempting to present?

    [​IMG]
    Bernie has been in office how long? At his core (his writings, voting record, speeches, activism, etc) how has he changed in the last 30 yrs exactly? Outside of the super delegate stance and the tax returns, what are his other hypocrisies? Name 5 more and how they were a detriment to the American people.

    Most importantly, why did Hillary supporters (fuck turning a blind eye) completely ignore her misdeeds? How is this any different from what you claim Bernie supporters do?

    I've heard Hillary talk about policies ideas concerning trade and corporations. I've haven't seen, read or heard any policy plans or ideas from Hillary or supporters about why they are voting for her and how her anointing will have a direct positive impact or improvement to them, their families and communities; outside of a $15 possible (graduated) minimum wage she was against up until 48 hours of the last debate.

    Anxiously awaiting a mental triple back flip explanation...
    [​IMG]
     
    #41 OckyDub, Jun 8, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2016
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  7. NikR

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    I assume you have a number in mind. I'd love to hear it.
     
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  8. Winston Smith

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    I would take time to properly research this in my academic databases if Cypher Avenue was giving out college credit. In lieu of that, we'll rely on the Intertubes...

    Clinton appears to be on probation on the issue
    Private Prison Lobbyists Are Raising Cash for Hillary Clinton

    Trump is the juvenile delinquent that's hanging with the boys and planning to rob shit
    Why Trump’s support for private prisons and mass incarceration should worry you

    Bernie, by virtue of being the senator of this state, could be considered guilty of the moral equivalent of the misprision of a felony
    Vermont’s Policy of Sending Prisoners Out-of-State Found Unconstitutional | Prison Legal News
     
  9. OckyDub

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    Really...come on, you know damn well you don't care that she got over 120k and got called out on it. Hillary could have eaten eight Haitian babies and you would be like, "only eight?"
     
  10. OckyDub

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    @Rico @NikR my point is, I don't know how old either of you are. If you have been doing something for the last 5-10 but all over a sudden you stop doing that thing after you run for president, I would absolutely call your character into play and think you are disingenuous.

    If you are doing nothing wrong...keep doing it. Don't back away and change course after you get called out about it.

    This woman has been in politics damn near her whole life...it wasn't until 2015-16 the she all of a sudden came to the conclusion that private prisons (slavery) was bad and ONLY after Bernie pushed that conversation and ONLY after a advocacy group called her out...REALLY? You cool with that? But yet @NikR says "I'm privalaged."

    If your okay supporting a woman who profited from legal slavery and the attitude is "well she better than Trump"...this is the dominating mindset of the American voter that shit really doesn't matter (they just politicians) as long as my team wins.
     
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  11. Winston Smith

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    Doc Ock, I'm just a few years older than you and Nick, Gen-X. I am really on your side in this in most ways and Nikr's side in one big sense. I think I've mentioned before I'm in the law/public safety field, but I have no love for the Clintons and their subsequent sentencing policies and law enforcement effects on black males in particular. During Slick willie's Reign of Error, I used to get pissed at black folk who gave them all sorts of black passes, like Toni Morrison; or pissed at black folk who would bristle at my political art that excoriated Clinton as much as Gingrich. I think I also mentioned my black heroes growing up were all economic nationalist/industrial education types: Booker T, George Washington Carver (who I only recently found out was most likely gay), Marcus Garvey, Harlem Renaissance artists, etc.

    In other words: I HAVE NO LOVE FOR THE CLINTONS. You don't get an argument from me on them and the private prison issue. I am not a Democrat/Republican/Libertarian/VeganFeministMartian or any other partisan party. I know that almost all politicians are sociopathic liars and hypocrites. I especially have no love for the cognitive dissonance of liberals and Democrats who can't see their own evil and moral bullshit, such as screaming "Bush Lied People Died," but don't have shit to say about Obama's use of drones because, you know, all us black bourgeois Talented Tenth muthafuggas got to support the so called black president, even when he's done wrong (black lives matter to a lot of black bourgeois types only if they make over 50K and aren't foreigners). I was glad to see my man Neil DeGrasse Tyson call out liberals out on their bullshit on Bill Maher's last show.

    That being said, I realize the importance of strategic actions and placements, which is why I said I only really support Clinton over Trump in the matter of SCOTUS nominees; it's a matter of being marginally better, not pure or perfect. That's where I agree with NickR.

    I get frustrated on a real level with partisan politics because 1) the amount of lies and duplicitous actions people put up with because someone is "on their team", e.g. dumb fucking whites who support Trump, Bush et al out of a sense of "whiteness" even though GOP policies are, to any reasonable observer against poor, white interests; or, black democrats and voters that supported criminals like Marion Barry or Jesse Jackson, Jr. In the name of some fucked up sense of race solidarity; 2) the fascist strain of all collective action which represses idiosyncratic and individual thought.

    In the end, I really don't give a fuck about any of the candidates. I believe in having my own personal goals and agendas. If a Democrat helps me get there, fine; if a republican can, fine too (not likely since Jack Kemp is dead). I don't believe in contorting myself to conform to any policy or party. My ass didn't come out of the womb with D or R branded on my baby butt. In the end, I'm about helping brothers like you and Nick and the site,because no one is going to support us as intelligent, enterprising, black gay men but OURSELVES. All the other shit doesn't really matter in the end. Black folk (other than a few like you) are never really going to call the Clintons and Dems on their bullshit; whites will continue to support demagogues like Trump out of fears of a black/brown planet; and most young Sanders supporters won't bust a grape and build a viable political movement because they're fucking lazy and want to be on mommy and daddy's insurance until grad school kicks them out ("If you like your Peter Pan Syndrome, on Obamacare you can keep your Peter Pan Syndrome").

    Now, y'all done got me riled up on the bus ride to work. I'm a have to hit some serious weights and a six pack after work!

    MIC DROP!
     
    #46 Winston Smith, Jun 9, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2016
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  12. NikR

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    You're right- I don't care about 120k. Because 120k is small potatoes. A year or so ago, the American Medical Association spent more than $22 million on lobbying congress. What do you think this money was used for? Campaign contributions! Lunches! Dinners! Guess who's part of the AMA? Dingdingding!!!! I'm also a part of other more specialty organizations- I'm essentially forced to be a part of these organizations and pay dues...and they hire lobbyists. And there are sooooo many more lobbyists for sooo many other industries. And I haven't even mentioned pharma, hospitals, device manufacturers, nursing homes, physical therapy and home nursing companies....like the list is endless. So when you talk about $120, 000, i ask incredulous ..really? $120k? The Clinton are worth 120 million dollars! And there's a lot more where that came from.

    I've never said any of this. I've never given anyone a pass and you know this. I told you this. You asked me if what bill clinton said some years ago was racist and I said, "obviously" and then parried it with- "I'm sorry, are you surprised?" I don't know how you're surpised by these things.

    I've said it many times - I have a dim view of humanity. I'm 27 and that's who I am. I either don't have expectations or expect the worst- about most things outside of ice cream, my grannie and ox tail. But this dim view doesn't mean I throw my hands to the heavens and say "I'll only support the one, pure holy one". I know the one pure holy one will lose. There's nothing wrong with winning. In order to do stuff, you have to first win. You support a bernie sanders. He's lost. And now you've thrown up your hands and cursed the heavens. His agenda won't get implemented, and instead of working with what you've got, you've said "hey, let's just prepare for Donald Trump, things need to get worse dammit so that maybe just maybe they can get better." People will be crushed if trump wins. I'll be ok. I'm a year or two away from having real doctor money- as long as I don't screw up too badly. So I'm gonna be great actually, regardless of who is president, espeically seeing as I live in a blue city in a deep blue state. I hate to think of what will happen to people in Tennessee and Alabama and Louisiana under "oh well let it burn". People living on the margins there aren't living with a net. They wont survive trump. They will be immensely worse off. Thats why I do question the amount of privilege you have- I know i have plenty. But at least im aware of it.

    Hillary supports, or doesn't seem concerned with, many deplorable enterprises. But she's interested in plenty of others. Shes intersted in women amd children, and a better tax code. But this election isn't between Jesus and Hillary. It's between Hillary and Trump.

    Here's what I think. If Hillary wins, she'll get to nominate a bunch of liberal Methuselahs to the Supreme court. And other federal benches. And maybe, just maybe, campaign reform will pass. It's the bill that passes all other bills. And maybe with the new supreme Court will overturn citizens united. This is my hope-that Goodwin Liu ends up on SCOTUS. I'm interested in the long game. If that means I need to support a candidate who is the lesser of all evils on order to win to actually get stuff done? Yep. I will raise my hand proudly to making thay lemonade I'm utilitarian. I'm pragmatic. Hear me f*cking roar.
     
    #47 NikR, Jun 10, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2016
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  13. Winston Smith

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    "But this election isn't between Jesus and Hillary...Here's what I think. If Hillary wins, she'll get to nominate a bunch of liberal Methuselahs to the Supreme court. And other federal benches. And maybe, just maybe, campaign reform will pass. It's the bill that passes all other bills. And maybe with the new supreme Court will overturn citizens united. This is my hope-that Goodwin Liu ends up on SCOTUS. I'm interested in the long game. If that means I need to support a candidate who is the lesser of all evils on order to win to actually get stuff done? Yep."

    Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!

    Oh, and you're too young to have a dim view of humanity. Come back when you're 35, and we'll have the "GET OFF MY LAWN" bumper sticker waiting for you.
    :franko1:
     
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  14. NikR

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    I'm eagerly anticipating getting one of these. And shouting like an ornery old man. *sigh* those are gonna be the days.

    I have a dim view with some cause. I see bad things happen. A lot. Both in my job and in life.

    But there are glimmers of hope though- like the young lady with an upper GI bleed that I just admitted to the hospital. She has NY marketplace insurance; ie Obamacare. When you start shatting and vomiting blood, it's nice to have insurance. But remember, obamacare was 'a half loaf'. It wasn't what Obama wanted, but it's what he could do. And just now, it saved someone's life. Do you remember how many dems thought his policy was weak, terrible, a "sell out to insurance companies"? Yeah. Well, had obamacare not passed, this lady would have a huuuge bill at the end of her stay. Or would be dead. Seriously, come visit me and I'll show you lives that I literally get to save because of obamacare. FDRs new deal didnt include black folks- but it was a step, and eventually black people benefitted too.

    Revolutions are often one-time events. Its easy to say "change it all, burn it down!" Reform though? That's hard. Hillary will be able to build on the reforms Obama has implemented. That's what this election is about. Lemonade is tangy but can be refreshing and sweet too.


    And my bad on the typos in the last message. Can't do so well on a tiny keyboard lol.
     
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  15. Winston Smith

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    No need to apologize, I'm trying to work an iPhone with my Herman Munster fingers. Is Obamacare perfect. No, not by a long shot, but my two cents:

    I hope your patient is doing well, lord knows, I had enough of those type of problems after Anthrax shots in Iraq, so I'm glad you were there for her. The Dems who talk about weakness of policy are full of shit. When Sec. Clinton proposed national health care in the 90s, did they work to try to make her plan succeed or offer viable alternatives? Nope. That's why the President and Pelosi took the route they did; get something big and imperfect through, get people used to the normalcy of it, making it that much harder to withdraw. That Republicans are able to convince their poor, toothless constituencies that guns are more important than a structure that would help them avoid catastrophic illness bills only shows how dumb and gullible voters are. I know, I used to work in insurance, debt collection and remediation. Prior to the 2008 crash the number 1 reason people filed for bankruptcy was those large medical debts, not credit cards as moralistic finger pointers try to claim.

    Pres. Obama said EXACTLY how and why his program would be structured almost a year before he was inaugurated. It's all right there in the 2008 issue of the American Academy of Actuaries magazine, Contingencies, where he and Mccain were asked to outline their proposed health policies (the issue is free online, I still have my original hard copy). So, Obamacare The Bill was never a "surprise." Between Sect. Clinton and the Prez, naysayers in their party had plenty of opportunities to propose and offer alternatives...and didn't do shit.

    As for all the usual blue dog dem and GOP retorts about big government, taxes and national health, one word: Switzerland. Hardly a nation that's a bastion of Sanders type socialism. Yet they manage to be largely free market and STILL have national health care without posters of Big Brother and Victory Gin plastered on building walls.
     
  16. ColumbusGuy

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    He is too young to be jaded. Yes he is a winner!-and not just in regard to upcoming money and status. I want him cloned-we need more of him! lol.
     
  17. ColumbusGuy

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    Yeah people do not realize that the biggest causes of bankruptcy are catastrophic illness, divorce and loss of job-that is how those credit card bills get so high!(why don't people think?). Hell I worked collections(out of desperation I hated it) and I was myself in collections for two accounts for the company I worked for!

    * I would be carefull about the Swiss-they are very conservative in some areas and did not even give women the right to vote until....1971!
     
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  18. Winston Smith

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    Understood. My main point was just to point to an obvious macroeconomic example, since the main point of right wingersand GOP is to use magic buzzwords like CAPITALISM, FREEDOM, FREE MARKETS, SECOND AMENDMENT, SOCIALISM, NATIONAL HEALTH...and etc. Switzerland is very market/banking and gun owning friendly, yet they aren't destroyed from a national health plan.
     
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  19. OckyDub

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    Right now, I think the best thing Hillary supporters can do to get Bernie supporters to vote for Hillary come November is to stop talking.
    :sucka:
     
    #54 OckyDub, Jun 11, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2016
  20. Winston Smith

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    The FBI would prefer they talk MORE...
    :obama:
     
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