Where is the Empathy for the DL Man?

Discussion in 'Group Discussions' started by OckyDub, Nov 3, 2015.

  1. Dante

    Dante https://www.gofundme.com/qv7v5dw
    The Great Debater The 1000 Daps Club

    Age:
    43
    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2015
    Messages:
    874
    Daps Received:
    1,245
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Baltimore, MD
    Orientation:
    Homosexual
    Dating:
    Single
    I agree. Bisexuality exists and yes WE ARE FAMILY! As a gay man, I have no issues with another man telling me he's bisexual (not "I don't get into labels" or pansexual). I know that he is sexually and physically attracted to men and women and with that, as long as he is faithful to and respects our situation and him being with a man, we can ride out into the sunset.
     
    D'Elle Brothers dapped this.
  2. Dante

    Dante https://www.gofundme.com/qv7v5dw
    The Great Debater The 1000 Daps Club

    Age:
    43
    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2015
    Messages:
    874
    Daps Received:
    1,245
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Baltimore, MD
    Orientation:
    Homosexual
    Dating:
    Single
    Very true.
     
  3. Jaa

    Jaa
    The 100 Daps Club

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2015
    Messages:
    395
    Daps Received:
    665
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    USA
    Yeah. I feel some empathy and understand how toxic attitudes pushed Mack to do what he did. I hope he lives a healthier, more honest life going forward, but fear doesn't justify life-altering deception. I'd feel pissed or at least deceived if I were one of his loved ones too. Not to mention that, upon being discovered, his response wasn't to own it but to continue harming and spreading deception by slandering the porn company. Reminds me of stories of homophobic high schoolers who crap on clockable gay dudes or hidden gay Republicans and preachers who fight LGBT matters. I get why they do it and, when they're discovered, hope they grow change their ways, but I can't let the pain they cause slide.

    It's easier to empathize with DL guys that are simply closeted and not using others to portray a certain lifestyle. They're primarily harming themselves and I wish they felt free to live their lives fully and openly. The ones discussed in media tend to be those that confuse or hurt others due to insecurity or trying to appeal to those who don't even respect them.
     
  4. Comment Imported From Main Site

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2015
    Messages:
    254
    Daps Received:
    148
    Addendum: "I'm sorry but I don't have any sympathy for Mr. Mack. Men like him are the problem." I tried to delete the second sentence during the editing process but the change would not go through. Mr. Mack has come out as gay (not bisexual, but gay) in a recent interview. He also said during this same interview that his 23 year old daughter told him to "kill yourself, you embarrassed the family". There is real pain in his eyes as he says this. My question is who taught this young woman that it was OK to hate gay/bisexual people? Obviously, this is the homophobic world he grew up in. But he helped perpetuate that world by not being honest about his sexuality. If he had come out to his daughter while she was a child she might have had a different idea about what gay/bisexual men are about. Instead this young woman found out about her father's sexual orientation by way of a gay porn video that features her father with a penis up his butt, two penises in his mouth at once and hotly tongue kissing two men. Quite possibly the daughter has seen all or part of this video. This man's actions perpetuates the tired (for often true as in this case) DL narrative of an irresponsible man who does not care about the lives of the women and children he was supposed to provide for and protect. Imagine what some straight black women must be thinking: if this black man (a boxer) could be on the DL ANY black man could be on the DL. This is why is a perfect example of why it is so important for masculine black gay men (whether they date/sex women or not) to be open about their sexuality. Ultimately it helps all of us, gay, bisexual and straight to understand each other better. After I saw the video with Mr. Mack looking dejected about what his daughter said to him I have deep compassion for him. I wish the best. Note: The kind of dejection that Mr. Mack is obviously dealing with now is the kind of dejection that more "clockable" or openly gay men deal with all the time. This is partly why I initially had so little sympathy for him. As a man who could "pass" for straight he has probably laughed at and/or told his share of "gay" jokes and worse but now that he has been "outed" he can see homophobia for the evil, hurtful thing that it is. Maybe he will use his newfound knowledge to help the community he now finds himself a part of.
     
    Cyrus-Brooks and ControlledXaos dapped this.
  5. ControlledXaos

    Squad Veteran Most Valuable Player The 1000 Daps Club

    Age:
    48
    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2015
    Messages:
    2,551
    Daps Received:
    7,196
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Atlanna
    Corrected this.

    Black women need to take responsibility for their own sexual behavior. If a straight man has raw sex with women and contracts HIV, they are not going to have gay men as a scapegoat in that case. Folks can't blame a third party on why they have an STD.

    We are all directly responsive for our health and blaming people your partner had sex with before you is incorrect.

    These ladies are not too worried about STDs a d safe sex in the first place because if they were, the ones who have baby daddies wouldn't have them.

    You have to be an active participant to prevent a pregnancy and reduce STD transmission. Many times these ladies are not doing that and these issues go hand and hand whether they realize it or not.
     
    DreG, Tyroc, Cyrus-Brooks and 1 other person dapped this.
  6. Comment Imported From Main Site

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2015
    Messages:
    254
    Daps Received:
    148
    ControlledXaos Would you say this in a room full of straight black women? I think not if you wanted to live to see another day. Most straight black women are deeply invested in the idea of blaming DL men for their high HIV/AIDS infection rates. This whole DL scenario is now at the level of a belief system (a dysfunctional belief system but a belief system nonetheless) among many straight black women these days. What you say is true about certain sexual situations (man sharing, casual/random sex, etc., for example) but consider this: Iyana Vanzant did a series a few weeks ago on Oprah's OWN network about two married (to women) black gay pastors. Their wives and families did not know these pastors were gay. They came out on Iyana's show. One of these preachers stated that he cheated on his wife with "five" (my guess is that if he admitted to five there were probably more) men during the marriage. I'm sure the wives of these two pastors were not using protection with their husbands nor would most people expect them to. In hook-up situations of all sorts, sensible people use "protection". On the hand, when a woman is married to, or in a committed relationship with, a man she is probably not going to be using or thinking about using any kind of protection. And no reasonable person is going to blame her (assuming she was faithful to her husband/partner) if she comes up with something she can't get rid of.
     
    Cyrus-Brooks dapped this.
  7. Comment Imported From Main Site

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2015
    Messages:
    254
    Daps Received:
    148
    Sorry, but if a woman is in a committed relationship and contracts HIV from her partner, she has every right to feel betrayed and to blame him. Also, historically, black women have been the black man's strongest ally, so we simply cannot dismiss their very valid concerns with a heartless "you need to look out for yourself".
     
    ctforbes, Dante and blk_universe dapped this.
  8. questforknowledge

    Bae Material Squad Leader The 100 Daps Club

    Age:
    37
    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2015
    Messages:
    88
    Daps Received:
    297
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Jersey City NJ
    Orientation:
    Gay
    Dating:
    Single
    So glad you wrote this article Ocky. I think about this a lot. As much as there are some things that annoy me about DL men, at the end of the day I do have sympathy for them. I realize the factors that keep men in the closet and it bugs me that some of these guys never find the courage to be their true selves. A lot of these guys are hurting on the inside and live their whole lives like this. Going through this as a child and young adult was rough and luckily I found the strength to break through the bonds that kept me in the closet. But to go through this for most of your life can't be easy, it's sad when you think about it. And I wonder if there will ever be a time when homosexuality is acceptable enough to where guys don't look at coming out as a suicide act.
     
  9. Rhode

    Rhode Urbanity

    Age:
    71
    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2015
    Messages:
    9
    Daps Received:
    15
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Bedford, OH
    Dating:
    Not looking
    It is a sad and bitter truth, but you are right. I do not see this changing much in my lifetime... It seems that a lot of Black folks are incapable of evolving on this issue.
     
    Cyrus-Brooks dapped this.
  10. ControlledXaos

    Squad Veteran Most Valuable Player The 1000 Daps Club

    Age:
    48
    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2015
    Messages:
    2,551
    Daps Received:
    7,196
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Atlanna
    ControlledXaos Would you say this in a room full of straight black women? I think not if you wanted to live to see another day.


    I sure would say it in a room full of black women with zero phuqs. People need to hear and read the truth and sometimes, the truth is ugly and it hurts.

    You have to be an active participant to avoid getting an STD. You have to be an active participant to avoid getting pregnant as well. The same circumstances that cause unwanted or unexpected pregnancies are usually the same ones that can lead to acquiring an STD. If a woman has sex with a man knowing she hasn't taken precautions that would lessen the chance of her getting pregnant, but she doesn't get Pregnant and instead gets an STD, she still has to recognize her part in the risk taken and the consequences that caused her to acquire the STD. You can't be mad at the acquiring the STD but had it been a pregnancy, be OK with it and surprised when you are not in a fully committed relationship or dont fully trust the guy.

    If someone lies to you about their STD status, that's different. But recognize that a risk was taken regardless of what the outcome may be if you have sex with them. HIV tests are usually free. Get tested at the same time if you are single before you have sex with the guy. Any time Simone puts up something blowback about an STD test, that's a sign. If they get upset about you questioning their truthfulness when a test isn't going to hurt or harm... That's a sign.


    On the hand, when a woman is married to, or in a committed relationship with, a man she is probably not going to be using or thinking about using any kind of protection. And no reasonable person is going to blame her (assuming she was faithful to her husband/partner) if she comes up with something she can't get rid of.

    Yeah. I didn't say anything that went against this particular situation but many women out here are having unprotected sex with no ring or with zero commitments. I would not expect a married couple to not have raw sex. I would not expect a married couple to whip out condoms for sex either.

    My statement was never meant to be a catch all for every situation where men who have sex with men who also have sex with women also bring STDs to them. It's the same as if they were sleeping around with women and having unprotected sex and catch an STD and bring it home.

    Bringing the STD to the committed partner is the issue. Where the infectee gets the STD from, female or male, isn't something one can go around blanket blaming gay people for.

    So if women are out here with no reasonable expectation of commitment while also not taking precautions to avoid pregnancy, why are they having raw sex with someone they don't fully trust?
     
    ColumbusGuy, Tyroc and Cyrus-Brooks dapped this.
  11. Comment Imported From Main Site

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2015
    Messages:
    254
    Daps Received:
    148
    I agree that sexually active straight black women who are not married or in committed relationships should take much better care of their sexual health than many of them do. But here's the thing. I've often heard HIV positive black women blame their HIV+ status on "heterosexual sex". This declaration is meant to absolve them of any personal responsibility for their condition and it works with many straight black people because it implies that she is the innocent victim of a DL man who "gave" her the virus. It doesn't matter to many straight black people if the "heterosexual sex" took place in a marriage/committed relationship or whether the black woman in question met a stranger at "da club" and had unprotected intercourse or anything in between. In the black woman's mind and in the minds of many straight black people it was the DL man's fault. She gets to be the victim and he's the monster who infected her. I'm not saying I agree with that I'm saying that this is how many straight black people look at it. Fairly or unfairly, many straight black people believe that DL men are destroying the lives of straight black women by infecting significant numbers of them with the HIV virus as if black women have no self determination in any and all sexual situations. This is why there is not going to be any "empathy" for DL men any time soon among most straight black people. Here's a very interesting story: I was having a discussion (in an internet setting) with a straight black man about HIV infections in black women. He was blaming gay/bisexual men as a collective for the high HIV infection rates in black women. I asked him what about GAY MEN who have NEVER had sex with a woman. His response to me was that gay men and bisexual men have sex with each other and then bisexual men have sex with women (and men) so gay men are, therefore, "indirectly" giving the virus to women!!! lol So he still found a way to blame gay men (who don't have sex with women) for HIV infections in women. The meme of the DL man as an "agent of death" among straight black women is not going away anytime soon in the straight black community.
     
    ControlledXaos and Cyrus-Brooks dapped this.
  12. Comment Imported From Main Site

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2015
    Messages:
    254
    Daps Received:
    148
    Yesterday, 12-1-15, was World AIDS Day. "Black News, Opinion, Politics and Culture - The Root" did a post entitled "True Stories - Positive Black Women". It was written by Kirsten West Savali. Ms. Savali profiles 4 HIV positive black heterosexual women. These black women spoke of how they became HIV Positive and the hardships they faced. They generally described being in heterosexual relationships/marriages and being cheated on by their "down-low" partners/husbands. These black women speak of the devastation of finding out they were HIV-positive and that their partners/husbands were sexing men behind their backs. In one profile, the black woman said that her partner knew he was infected and infected her ON PURPOSE. Ms. Savali's article is an indictment of DL men if there ever was one and let me say that I don't think that frying DL men was the primary (or secondary) intent of her article: the article's main intent, I believe, was to humanize HIV positive black women. There will be no empathy for DL men in the straight black community and if these women are telling the whole truth there shouldn't be. I have gone back and forth somewhat over this issue and I've decided that regardless of how homophobic society is in general, or black society is in particular, I have NO empathy/sympathy for men like Yusaf Mack. They deserve whatever they get when they're "outed". Black men like Mr. Mack make all black gay/bisexual men look creepy at best and monstrous at worse. There is no sugarcoating this. The solution to this problem would be for DL men to come up from the DL (but we know that's not going to happen on a mass scale). Also masculine black gay men, who do not have sex with women, could help by coming out of their closets and telling their stories (but that's not likely to happen on a mass scale either). The only realistic way forward that I can see is for each "conscious" black gay man to live his life openly and with integrity so that the straight people in his life can see that we're not all messed up inside. Those conscious black gay men can show the people who know them that at least a few us actually like who we are and have found a way to THRIVE as relatively sane openly gay black men. Enjoy your day, men.
     
  13. OckyDub

    OckyDub is a Verified MemberOckyDub I gave the Loc'ness monstah about $3.50
    Site Founder The 10000 Daps Club

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2015
    Messages:
    6,691
    Daps Received:
    15,036
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    The planet of Memory Corpses
    Orientation:
    Homosexual
    Dating:
    Married
    Sigh...the closet/DL (as a whole) would not exist if HETEROSEXUALS were not anti-homosexual. If your focus (like many in the black populace on this topic) is on the effect and not the cause...the effect will continue. If this is not the starting point in the conversation or discussion then...
     
    ControlledXaos and Cyrus-Brooks dapped this.
  14. Dante

    Dante https://www.gofundme.com/qv7v5dw
    The Great Debater The 1000 Daps Club

    Age:
    43
    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2015
    Messages:
    874
    Daps Received:
    1,245
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Baltimore, MD
    Orientation:
    Homosexual
    Dating:
    Single
    That pretty much sums it up 1000%. The reason why there are (and will continue to be) gay and bisexual men on the DL/in the closet is because of the overall stigma that comes from heterosexual men and women who see homosexuality and bisexuality as they have always seen it, even with there being natural fact that a human being can be non-heterosexual and it not being because of molestation/rape, lack of parenting (i.e. single mothers) or some "How To Be Gay/Bisexual 101" workshop that's been going on. It's not to say that those 4 straight women and many other straight women that have dealt and are dealing with gay and bisexual men on the DL/in the closet should endure the aftermath of having HIV. However, at this point, we all know that HIV/AIDS and other STIs/STDs are not because of someone being gay or bisexual. Only idiots will think so. The fact is that until the social culture of heterosexuals can incorporate the idea that sexuality is not just heterosexuality from the household to the church and the narrative that heterosexuals put out there in society about homosexuality and bisexuality is washed away, there will be no extermination of the DL/closeted man, especially those men who are Black. Thus, there will be more stories of straight women joining the same club those women are in.
     
    #49 Dante, Dec 2, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2015
    Cyrus-Brooks dapped this.
  15. Cyrus-Brooks

    Cyrus-Brooks is a Featured MemberCyrus-Brooks The Black Vulcan
    Squad Leader Best Site Comments The 1000 Daps Club

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2015
    Messages:
    1,257
    Daps Received:
    2,420
    Gender:
    Male
    Dating:
    In a Relationship
    What you're suggesting still won't change the fact that openly gay men are vilified in the black community as public enemy #1 just like DL men. The black community doesn't make a distinction between openly gay and bisexual men, closeted gay men, and dl men. Also it doesn't change the fact that too many heterosexual black women are cavalier about their own safety. They like to play the victim even though they are just as guilty of perpetuating homophobia which creates the DL problem.
     
    DreG, OckyDub and Dante dapped this.
  16. Comment Imported From Main Site

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2015
    Messages:
    254
    Daps Received:
    148
    The closet would not exist if the gay/bisexual men who are in the closet would just stop being afraid and come out of it. This is not the Middle Ages. This is not the 1950s. It's 2015, soon to be 2016. It's not against the law to be gay in the US anymore. Sodomy laws in America were declared unconstitutional by the US Supreme Court more than 10 years ago. We now have marriage equality in all 50 states. You are giving straight people way too much power. Straight people don't have all the power unless you've been indoctrinated to think that they do. What if the black Civil Rights Movement activists of the 1950s and 60s had waited until viciously racist white people of that era decided to stop being racist to make their move? They (we) would still be waiting for Jim Crow to end. What if Rosa Parks had decided to give up her seat on the bus to the white man because she was scared she would be arrested or even beaten/killed? No, Rosa stayed in her seat, faced down her fears, took control of the narrative and changed the world. The same thing can be done with homophobic straight people. My generation of black gay men (baby boomers) were mostly afraid although a few of us were brave: my activist years, for example, were approximately from the mid 1980s to the early 1990s (not to pat myself on the back). I'm frankly surprised that a younger generation of black gay men (20s and 30s) are still, after the victories LGBT people won in recent years at the highest levels of government, so afraid of straight people. Things are not going to change until and unless a critical mass of black gay men take control of their (our) narrative and begin an honest and open dialogue, regardless of the consequences, with straight black people about who we are. White gay activists challenged straight white people starting in the late 1960s (the Stonewall riots) and look where they are now. I'm surprised that a younger generation of black gay men, at least on this site, don't get this. There can be no change without decisive action on our part.
     
  17. OckyDub

    OckyDub is a Verified MemberOckyDub I gave the Loc'ness monstah about $3.50
    Site Founder The 10000 Daps Club

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2015
    Messages:
    6,691
    Daps Received:
    15,036
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    The planet of Memory Corpses
    Orientation:
    Homosexual
    Dating:
    Married
    I'll just say this...your point of view is short sighted, unempathetic and dangerous and helps continue the very subject matter. Agree to disagree...thanks for visiting.
     
    Cyrus-Brooks dapped this.
  18. Dante

    Dante https://www.gofundme.com/qv7v5dw
    The Great Debater The 1000 Daps Club

    Age:
    43
    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2015
    Messages:
    874
    Daps Received:
    1,245
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Baltimore, MD
    Orientation:
    Homosexual
    Dating:
    Single
    Your first statement will NOT happen if there is blatent homophobia and the backlash of even being gay or even bisexual within our communities, especially amongst Black people. There shouldn't be gay and bisexual men on the DL. However, look forward to a lot of gay and bisexual men being on the DL, until homophobia is exterminated.
     
    Cyrus-Brooks dapped this.
  19. Comment Imported From Main Site

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2015
    Messages:
    254
    Daps Received:
    148
    You don't stop "living your truth" because straight black people don't like it. You keep being you. That's how you show you have backbone and build credibility and respect. One reason why many straight black people group the categories you mentioned together is being we black gay/bisexual men have failed to tell our individual stories. We can't blame them for being confused about who we are when we are afraid to set the record straight. If you lose relatives and "friends" along the way, so be it. You didn't need those people anyway. It's not like you're a kid who still needs those people in order to have a roof over your head. Every gay man should have a gay support system anyway as protection when (if) straight people (including relatives) start acting crazy.
     
  20. Comment Imported From Main Site

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2015
    Messages:
    254
    Daps Received:
    148
    Straight black people have no reason to change their homophobic ways because they are perfectly comfortable with things just. the. way. they are. We (black LGBT people)are the ones who are suffocating underneath the weight of black homophobia. If we don't take the initiative to nudge them in the direction we want them to go they will continue to do as they always have and we will continue to live stunted lives.
     
  21. Dante

    Dante https://www.gofundme.com/qv7v5dw
    The Great Debater The 1000 Daps Club

    Age:
    43
    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2015
    Messages:
    874
    Daps Received:
    1,245
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Baltimore, MD
    Orientation:
    Homosexual
    Dating:
    Single
    I really don't see a need to respond anymore to this topic. However, I cringe reading the BS in your last two statements.
    I'm 100% behind you on DL gay and bisexual men and the world they live in, including the many issues with those men in general. But it's completely sad that you have this mental standpoint of not accepting that homophobic and biphobic heterosexual men and women play a BIG part in the reason why DL gay and bisexual men exists.

    Much success!
     
    #56 Dante, Dec 3, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2015
    Cyrus-Brooks dapped this.
  22. BlackOnyx1

    The 100 Daps Club

    Age:
    29
    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2015
    Messages:
    118
    Daps Received:
    131
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Chicago,Illinois
    Dating:
    Single
    this is a really good article i enjoyed reading this a lot, i'll keep my personal comments to myself so as not to offend anyone...
     
  23. Comment Imported From Main Site

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2015
    Messages:
    254
    Daps Received:
    148
    The relationship between empathy and anger response towards another person has also been investigated, with two studies basically finding that the higher a person's perspective taking ability, the less angry they were in response to a provocation. Empathic concern did not, however, significantly predict anger response, and higher personal distress was associated with increased anger.
     
  24. Winston Smith

    Best Site Comments The 1000 Daps Club Supporter

    Joined:
    May 6, 2016
    Messages:
    2,017
    Daps Received:
    5,479
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Nowhere in Particular
    Orientation:
    Gay
    Dating:
    Not looking
    Very true and inspiring, bro!
     
  25. Comment Imported From Main Site

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2015
    Messages:
    254
    Daps Received:
    148
    Or, maybe it's just a weak and pathetic excuse to be a pimp, player, cheater, woman abuser. A DL man gets himself involved with a woman because he needs someone to love and take care of him, meanwhile he's out having unprotected high risk sex with other men, constantly lying and causing drama to her life. DL men don't deserve sympathy, boo hoo, tears, you were forced in the closet. At the end of the day. a cheater is a cheater and a liar is a liar, and a DL man can easily ruin a woman's life. If you feel so driven to the closet, then stay in it, and be the straight man you pretend to be.
     
  26. Dante

    Dante https://www.gofundme.com/qv7v5dw
    The Great Debater The 1000 Daps Club

    Age:
    43
    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2015
    Messages:
    874
    Daps Received:
    1,245
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Baltimore, MD
    Orientation:
    Homosexual
    Dating:
    Single
    I get the "hurting women" position you are taking. However, you are too lost in that position to see the environmental and social issues that have birthed the DL man.

    And WHY did I respond?...lol You trolling sir!
     
    #61 Dante, Oct 15, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2016
    OckyDub and alton dapped this.
  27. ControlledXaos

    Squad Veteran Most Valuable Player The 1000 Daps Club

    Age:
    48
    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2015
    Messages:
    2,551
    Daps Received:
    7,196
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Atlanna
    Huh? This sentence doesn't make sense.
     
    OckyDub and alton dapped this.
Loading...

Share This Page

Loading...