CA Podcast #58 – The “Moonlight” Episode

By Nick Delmacy | Posted Oct 21 2016 | 75 Comments  

ca-podcast58

Brehs, we present to you a new episode of the CYPHER AVENUE PODCAST where you’ll hear us give updates, engage in heated topic debates, interviewing interesting homosexual men of color and us verbally adding on to the articles posted on the website. The episodes will be available in four ways: You can listen to them on the site, watch on YouTube, download a MP3 version or subscribe to us on iTunes or YouTube for automatic updates!

In this podcast, Cypher Avenue co-founders Octavius Williams and Nick Delmacy give a SPOILER-FREE review of the new critically acclaimed LGBT film, “Moonlight.” Then (at the 33:30 mark), they dive into spoilers to have a deep dive discussion of the film as well as tell never-before-told stories about their own lives dealing with Bullies and their Sexuality when they were teenagers.

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CYPHER AVENUE PODCAST #58

 

About the Author
Nick Delmacy

Nick is a founder, editor and the pop culture expert at Cypher Avenue. Serving as the designer and webmaster of the site, he is the architect of The Cypher Avenue Matrix.

   
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75 Comments Feel Free To Join The Cypher.

  1. thami | October 21st, 2016
    0

    love this sooooooo much. highlight of my week, Thanks guys!

  2. Dante
    Dante | October 21st, 2016
    0

    Will be checking this out indeed.

  3. acessential
    acessential | October 22nd, 2016
    0

    Definitely gonna listen to this. Gotta let my own thoughts marinate first though.

  4. hannibal
    hannibal | October 22nd, 2016
    0

    @Ockydub masculinity was front and center. His mom pretty mich said so in the beginning

  5. OckyDub
    Ockydub | October 22nd, 2016
    0
    hannibal

    @Ockydub masculinity was front and center. His mom pretty mich said so in the beginning

    What was said and what was displayed is two different things. Nothing about Chiron on screen in Act I or II made him appear effeminate.

  6. acessential
    acessential | October 22nd, 2016
    0
    Ockydub

    What was said and what was displayed is two different things. Nothing about Chiron on screen in Act I or II made him appear effeminate.

    I still haven't listened to this podcast. I'm about to. But this is something that I noticed too. The dudes would bully him and call him names, but I felt it was moreso because he was just weird and kinda awkward and not because he was effeminate. Let me actually listen to this though before I start repeating stuff that was already said.

  7. hannibal
    hannibal | October 22nd, 2016
    0

    Did you not see his dancing or his running? Even the way he limp wristed was feminine. He was so quiet that I dont think people noticed. It was visual

  8. hannibal
    hannibal | October 22nd, 2016
    0

    And those child actors,bless their hearts, they have great performances but there's no way they grew up to look like Black

  9. OckyDub
    Ockydub | October 22nd, 2016
    0
    hannibal

    Did you not see his dancing or his running? Even the way he limp wristed was feminine. He was so quiet that I dont think people noticed. It was visual

    Will try to notice this when I view the film again. I didn't see this. Did you notice any of those mannerisms with Chiron in act II

  10. OckyDub
    Ockydub | October 22nd, 2016
    0
    hannibal

    And those child actors,bless their hearts, theyhave great performances but there's no way they grew up to look like Black

    This child actors in act I and II looked similar. Act III, I'm like…"who dis nicca?"

  11. hannibal
    hannibal | October 22nd, 2016
    0
    Ockydub

    Will try to notice this when I view the film again. I didn't see this. Did you notice any of those mannerisms with Chiron in act II

    No. But I think that may have been the point. He became harder in each chapter. He was definitely submissive to Kevin but I won't say that was feminine.

  12. acessential
    acessential | October 22nd, 2016
    0

    *Potential Spoilers*

    Okay I listened to the podcast and I will reiterate what I said earlier. I do think his bullying was based on a critique of masculinity. But, not because he was definitely effeminate. As kids, Kevin tells Chiron that he needs to be hard and not let dudes bully him. They then engage in wrestling. Kevin then says, "See, I knew you weren't soft." That to me is a very specific depiction of how masculinity is supposed to operate for all black boys in that particular community. So because Chiron wasn't quick to basically beat up other kids and rough house, he immediately fell outside of those masculine norms and was labeled a "f**got."

    As far as the dance scene is concerned, I didn't see his movement as particularly any different than any of the other kids dancing around him, male or female. (I plan to watch the movie again, so I'll double check) I think it was moreso about his enjoyment of it. Aside from his short conversation with Kevin, that seemed to show the only time where he was happy being a kid.

    And if we want to talk about realistic depictions, which is what the filmmakers were definitely going for, it doesn't make sense for Chiron to transition from this effeminate little kid to this masculine adult. Let's be real. Effeminate kids are still going to have those same effeminate traits as adults. Even if it becomes more subtle. Chiron isn't limp wristed as an adult. But he still has some of the same character traits he did as a kid that led to his bullying. He's still quiet. He's still reserved. That shows continuity and that he's the same person. He may dress differently. But that's something that's easily changed and more believable. But it's more difficult to change your mannerisms and who you are internally.

    I'm not saying that they shouldn't have portrayed Little as an effeminate little kid. But I don't think that was the overall intention of the filmmaker. It was more subtle. They wanted to show how even slightly going outside of strict gender norms, is enough to label you as gay.

  13. OckyDub
    Ockydub | October 22nd, 2016
    0
    acessential

    *Potential Spoilers*

    Okay I listened to the podcast and I will reiterate what I said earlier. I do think his bullying was based on a critique of masculinity. But, not because he was definitely effeminate. As kids, Kevin tells Chiron that he needs to be hard and not let dudes bully him. They then engage in wrestling. Kevin then says, "See, I knew you weren't soft." That to me is a very specific depiction of how masculinity is supposed to operate for all black boys in that particular community. So because Chiron wasn't quick to basically beat up other kids and rough house, he immediately fell outside of those masculine norms and was labeled a "f**got."

    As far as the dance scene is concerned, I didn't see his movement as particularly any different than any of the other kids dancing around him, male or female. (I plan to watch the movie again, so I'll double check) I think it was moreso about his enjoyment of it. Aside from his short conversation with Kevin, that seemed to show the only time where he was happy being a kid.

    And if we want to talk about realistic depictions, which is what the filmmakers were definitely going for, it doesn't make sense for Chiron to transition from this effeminate little kid to this masculine adult. Let's be real. Effeminate kids are still going to have those same effeminate traits as adults. Even if it becomes more subtle. Chiron isn't limp wristed as an adult. But he still has some of the same character traits he did as a kid that led to his bullying. He's still quiet. He's still reserved. That shows continuity and that he's the same person. He may dress differently. But that's something that's easily changed and more believable. But it's more difficult to change your mannerisms and who you are internally.

    I'm not saying that they shouldn't have portrayed Little as an effeminate little kid. But I don't think that was the overall intention of the filmmaker. It was more subtle. They wanted to show how even slightly going outside of strict gender norms, is enough to label you as gay.

    Sentiments shared! Elements or more details of exactly this thinking was/is going into my essay about the film.

  14. acessential
    acessential | October 22nd, 2016
    0

    I will also say masculintiy can definitely be a performance. But people have this assumption that any dude can hit the gym and grow a beard and suddenly become masculine. Or that a dude can put on hot pants and sing Britney Spears and become feminine. Yes those are societal definitions, but that doesn't change the nature of the person.

    A feminine dude is going to be feminine no matter what he wears. A masculune dude is going to be masculine no matter what he wears. It's noticeable. It's behaviors and mannerisms.

    Can you imagine someone like the Rock singing Britney Spears? He would be doing a feminine performance, but he would still be innately masculine. Likewise, do y'all remember Chris Crocker? The "leave Britney alone" kid? He's actually a stereotypically attractive dude now. He has facial hair, obviously goes to the gym. But to me he's still a noticeably feminine dude. You can just….tell.

    My point being, I don't think Chiron would have been able to pull off the masculintiy so well as an adult if he wasn't already "masculine of center." If he had always been this feminine dude, I would not have found his transition into adulthood believable at all.

  15. OckyDub
    Ockydub | October 22nd, 2016
    0
    acessential

    I will also say masculintiy can definitely be a performance. But people have this assumption that any dude can hit the gym and grow a beard and suddenly become masculine. Or that a dude can put on hot pants and sing Britney Spears and become feminine. Yes those are societal definitions, but that doesn't change the nature of the person.

    A feminine dude is going to be feminine no matter what he wears. A masculune dude is going to be masculine no matter what he wears. It's noticeable. It's behaviors and mannerisms.

    Can you imagine someone like the Rock singing Britney Spears? He would be doing a feminine performance, but he would still be innately masculine. Likewise, do y'all remember Chris Crocker? The "leave Britney alone" kid? He's actually a stereotypically attractive dude now. He has facial hair, obviously goes to the gym. But to me he's still a noticeably feminine dude. You can just….tell.

    My point being, I don't think Chiron would have been able to pull off the masculintiy so well as an adult if he wasn't already "masculine of center." If he had always been this feminine dude, I would not have found his transition into adulthood believable at all.

    ALL OF THIS!

  16. hannibal
    hannibal | October 22nd, 2016
    0
    Ockydub

    ALL OF THIS!

    Guess we gonna have to agree to disagree. I saw a femin Little. On the other hand, the most feminine person to me aas the main bully.

  17. acessential
    acessential | October 22nd, 2016
    0
    hannibal

    Guess we gonna have to agree to disagree. I saw a femin Little. On the other hand, the most feminine person to me aas the main bully.

    Yo. I thought I was the only one who noticed something. As soon as the bully started talking in the classroom scene, I was like, "He sounds kinda…….." I'm gonna have to pay attention to this too when I watch it again. For a second I thought there was gonna be a plot twist where he tries to hit on Chiron.

    • hannibal
      hannibal | October 22nd, 2016
      0

      I need to go back and verify that he had on colored contacts lol. And I was so nervous they were gonna go the pedophelia route with Juan. I was so relieved that they didn’t.

      This should have been a live podcast @Ocky because I got stuff to say about it.

  18. Nick Delmacy
    Nick Delmacy | October 22nd, 2016
    0
    acessential

    My point being, I don't think Chiron would have been able to pull off the masculintiy so well as an adult if he wasn't already "masculine of center." If he had always been this feminine dude, I would not have found his transition into adulthood believable at all.

    I agree with this. The boys from my youth who were slightly feminine have since become slightly feminine adult men, or fully feminine adult men.

    One needs to look no further than Web Series like Freefall (no offense, first example to came to mind) to see inbetween gay men unsuccessfully attempting to pull off Hypermasculinity.

    Regardless, as I said in the podcast, the film seems to be more about Bullying and Masculinity than struggling with Sexuality.

    I'll give Freefall director Lamont Pierre credit that his films are actually "gay" and not afraid or timid to show our male Sexuality like Moonlight was afraid…this film was about Masculinity more than Sexuality. Lamont does the opposite, which I appreciate.

    I've had more time to digest the film and I have to admit that it really neglected the gay side of the struggle to explore the weakness/strength masculinity theme. The homosexuality is kind of an afterthought tacked on to the story like the rushed third act.

    Would a heterosexual film have to hint at Sexuality so much? Especially in a coming of age film? A film about straight people wouldn't have pulled so many punches. When I was a Gay youth, I didn't fantasize about boys having sex with other girls (as depicted in Moonlight)…I fantasized about them being intimate with me. Even if I didn't think they were gay as well.

    Also, I need to see the film again but the more I think about it the more I dislike the third act. It seemed rushed, as if Trevante was only available for a limited amount of days or they ran out of budget to shoot all of his scenes.

    A guy that looks like Trevante, in ATLANTA of all places, supposedly hasn't been touched since the 10th grade?! Judging by casual interactions with his drug partner in the car that he picked up, he clearly doesn't have the same level of shyness with other men that he had before. He also has confidence, muscles, money and power now, if anything he should have had many more DL men hitting on him by now.

    Logically this act makes no sense. He has unrequited love for Kevin? Why? Because he once gave him a hand job? Said a few kind words to him? But he also kinda helped ruin his life even more than it already was.

    The whole thing felt rushed. Maybe there was more connective tissue in the source material.

    One side question I wondered is would Black be as quick to drive all the way from ATL to MIA if Kevin called and he had a developed effeminate voice? The same convo, just with the voice of a Kevin who was now more "free" in his bisexuality.

    Maybe wouldn’t have made a difference character-wise, but there def was a clear decision made by the director to not have obvious gay male femininity displayed in the film.

  19. hannibal
    hannibal | October 22nd, 2016
    0
    Nick Delmacy

    I agree with this. The boys from my youth who were slightly feminine have since become slightly feminine adult men, or fully feminine adult men.

    One needs to look no further than Web Series like Freefall (no offense, first example to came to mind) to see inbetween gay men unsuccessfully attempting to pull off Hypermasculinity.

    Regardless, as I said in the podcast, the film seems to be more about Bullying and Masculinity than struggling with Sexuality.

    I'll give Freefall director Lamont Pierre credit that his films are actually "gay" and not afraid or timid to show our male Sexuality like Moonlight was afraid…this film was about Masculinity more than Sexuality. Lamont does the opposite, which I appreciate.

    I've had more time to digest the film and I have to admit that it really neglected the gay side of the struggle to explore the weakness/strength masculinity theme. The homosexuality is kind of an afterthought tacked on to the story like the rushed third act.

    Would a heterosexual film have to hint at Sexuality so much? Especially in a coming of age film? A film about straight people wouldn't have pulled so many punches. When I was a Gay youth, I didn't fantasize about boys having sex with other girls (as depicted in Moonlight)…I fantasized about them being intimate with me. Even if I didn't think they were gay as well.

    Also, I need to see the film again but the more I think about it the more I dislike the third act. It seemed rushed, as if Trevante was only available for a limited amount of days or they ran out of budget to shoot all of his scenes.

    A guy that looks like Trevante, in ATLANTA of all places, supposedly hasn't been touched since the 10th grade?! Judging by casual interactions with his drug partner in the car that he picked up, he clearly doesn't have the same level of shyness with other men that he had before. He also has confidence, muscles, money and power now, if anything he should have had many more DL men hitting on him by now.

    Logically this act makes no sense. He has unrequited love for Kevin? Why? Because he once gave him a hand job? Said a few kind words to him? But he also kinda helped ruin his life even more than it already was.

    The whole thing felt rushed. Maybe there was more connective tissue in the source material.

    One side question I wondered is would Black be as quick to drive all the way from ATL to MIA if Kevin called and he had a developed effeminate voice? The same convo, just with the voice of a Kevin who was now more "free" in his bisexuality.

    Maybe wouldn’t have made a difference character-wise, but there def was a clear decision made by the director to not have obvious gay male femininity displayed in the film.

    Look, Little was a little gay boy. It was very visibly obvious. I'm not sure what ya'll aren't seeing. It was more subdued in Chiron, but he was still passively submissive. I agree with you on Black. Looking like that..in ATL…and you ain't touched no man yet you were pretty much coming onto one of your goons a scene ago? But I will say…the 3rd act had a lot of unspoken moments that were strong, like when Kevin started playing the song that made him think of Black and he started pulling at his own skin as if he was afraid of how black would react (although he jerked him off a few years prior)…but still. it was gut wrenching in the uncertainty.

  20. Nick Delmacy
    Nick Delmacy | October 22nd, 2016
    0
    hannibal

    Look, Little was a little gay boy. It was very visibly obvious. I'm not sure what ya'll aren't seeing. It was more subdued in Chiron, but he was still passively submissive. I agree with you on Black. Looking like that..in ATL…and you ain't touched no man yet you were pretty much coming onto one of your goons a scene ago? But I will say…the 3rd act had a lot of unspoken moments that were strong, like when Kevin started playing the song that made him think of Black and he started pulling at his own skin as if he was afraid of how black would react (although he jerked him off a few years prior)…but still. it was gut wrenching in the uncertainty.

    No doubt. I'm not saying there wasn't great filmmaking and acting in there, I'm just saying that in relation to the rest of the film, the third act felt rushed and out of place with gaps in character logic.

  21. hannibal
    hannibal | October 22nd, 2016
    0
    Nick Delmacy

    No doubt. I'm not saying there wasn't great filmmaking and acting in there, I'm just saying that in relation to the rest of the film, the third act felt rushed and out of place with gaps in character logic.

    I don't disagree. A handjob from 10 years ago ain't gonna make me drive to Miami.

  22. Nick Delmacy
    Nick Delmacy | October 22nd, 2016
    +1
    hannibal

    I don't disagree. A handjob from 10 years ago ain't gonna make me drive to Miami.

    RIGHT! If "Black" was real and living in Atlanta, he would in actuality be on Jack'd with a blank profile and a shirtless, headless torso avatar…getting hella DMs.

  23. OckyDub
    Ockydub | October 22nd, 2016
    0

    @hannibal I will make a point to have a second round table podcast after the film has had a national release. You are welcome to join (more info to come soon). I really do think all the points here are valid and have value with @acessential observations being a view that I feel those in the mainstream queer audience don't realized when they make comments like, "he's faking masculinity or attempting to act straight".

  24. hannibal
    hannibal | October 22nd, 2016
    0

    Perhaps I'm slow but I though the picture was Chiron and his mom

  25. acessential
    acessential | October 23rd, 2016
    0

    *SPOILERS*

    I saw it a second time. (Yes, it's a slight obsession) And I stand by what I said earlier.

    I paid close attention to his mannerisms and I still think the brunt of his bullying came about because he didn't fit this "let's hit each other and rough house" gender role and not specifically from his mannerisms. Plus the kids knew his mom was a crackhead and his clothes were garbage. Did y'all see his shoes in the second half?

    And the bully was definitely super flamboyant. Especially in both of the classroom scenes. His attitude and facial expressions were flashing gay to me. I think that might have been intentional by the filmmakers. It would lead the audience to suspect that one of the most homophobic dudes is actually gay on the low.

    Another thing I think folks haven't mentioned is how awesome Juan's character is. He's definitely the stereotypical version of black masculinity, but he also has a very nurturing side. And notice how when he had the conversation about homosexuality with Chiron, he didn't even trip about it and was actually very supportive. That's not something you would expect from someone like him.

  26. OhSheit
    OhSheit | October 23rd, 2016
    0
    Nick Delmacy

    I agree with this. The boys from my youth who were slightly feminine have since become slightly feminine adult men, or fully feminine adult men.

    One needs to look no further than Web Series like Freefall (no offense, first example to come to mind) to see inbetween gay men unsuccessfully attempting to pull off Hypermasculinity.

    Regardless, as I said in the podcast, the film seems to be more about Bullying and Masculinity than struggling with Sexuality.

    I'll give Freefall director Lamont Pierre credit that his films are actually "gay" and not afraid or timid to show our male Sexuality like Moonlight was afraid…this film was about Masculinity more than Sexuality. Lamont does the opposite, which I appreciate.

    I've had more time to digest the film and I have to admit that it really neglected the gay side of the struggle to explore the weakness/strength masculinity theme. The homosexuality is kind of an afterthought tacked on to the story like the rushed third act.

    Would a heterosexual film have to hint at Sexuality so much? Especially in a coming of age film? A film about straight people wouldn't have pulled so many punches. When I was a Gay youth, I didn't fantasize about boys having sex with other girls (as depicted in Moonlight)…I fantasized about them being intimate with me. Even if I didn't think they were gay as well.

    Also, I need to see the film again but the more I think about it the more I dislike the third act. It seemed rushed, as if Trevante was only available for a limited amount of days or they ran out of budget to shoot all of his scenes.

    A guy that looks like Trevante, in ATLANTA of all places, supposedly hasn't been touched since the 10th grade?! Judging by casual interactions with his drug partner in the car that he picked up, he clearly doesn't have the same level of shyness with other men that he had before. He also has confidence, muscles, money and power now, if anything he should have had many more DL men hitting on him by now.

    Logically this act makes no sense. He has unrequited love for Kevin? Why? Because he once gave him a hand job? Said a few kind words to him? But he also kinda helped ruin his life even more than it already was.

    The whole thing felt rushed. Maybe there was more connective tissue in the source material.

    One side question I wondered is would Black be as quick to drive all the way from ATL to MIA if Kevin called and he had a developed effeminate voice? The same convo, just with the voice of a Kevin who was now more "free" in his bisexuality.

    Maybe wouldn’t have made a difference character-wise, but there def was a clear decision made by the director to not have obvious gay male femininity displayed in the film.

    Dude, that was the Jack'd moment of the film that I thought was going to happen lol. I seriously thought the third act was going in the DL direction with Black, and SB3 had to remind me that while Black was driving to Miami he was actually going to see Kevin. When he pulled up to the diner I had actually asked him "dude or chick?" because I thought he was potentially seeing a female instead. I must have dosed the f**k off for a second, I don't know how I missed that he was going to see Kevin.

    Act 3 was the weakest but the diner scene had me cheesin! This meme came to mind the rest of the night:
    [​IMG]

  27. SwagJack
    SwagJack | October 23rd, 2016
    0
    Nick Delmacy

    RIGHT! If "Black" was real and living in Atlanta, he would in actuality be on Jack'd with a blank profile and a shirtless, headless torso avatar…getting hella DMs.

    He was initially just going to Miami see his mom.

  28. SwagJack
    SwagJack | October 23rd, 2016
    0
    Nick Delmacy

    No doubt. I'm not saying there wasn't great filmmaking and acting in there, I'm just saying that in relation to the rest of the film, the third act felt rushed and out of place with gaps in character logic.

    The third act was the least fleshed out of the tryptich. I think the character logic flaws that you spoke to are probably a result of a few things. The main one I'd venture to say is that Barry wrote the script. Even though the source material was written by a gay Black man, Barry's lens is different and may not have been able to focus on those nuances. Also, I think he may have been a little reticent about gay sex scenes. Probably several reasons behind that.

  29. Dante
    Dante | October 23rd, 2016
    0
    hannibal

    I need to go back and verify that he had on colored contacts lol. And I was so nervous they were gonna go the pedophelia route with Juan. I was so relieved that they didn't. This should have been a live podcast @Ocky because I got stuff to say about it.

    I am glad they did not, bc the homophobes would have threw a I Told You So party around the world. Not like they are going to watch the movie aka gay shyt, but that would have sealed the deal on the "gay agenda".

  30. hannibal
    hannibal | October 23rd, 2016
    0

    Id like a discussion on this movie as opposed to Birth Of A Nation whereas this film came out of nowhere and took the oscar worthy mantle from a film made by someone who doesnt appear to like gays. The irony

  31. Nick Delmacy
    Nick Delmacy | October 23rd, 2016
    0

    I have a feeling that this will be the only LGBT space that will have a frank discussion on both the pros and cons of the film. Just about every other place will just talk about how "brilliant" it is. The fems will relate to the bullying and the masc dudes will relate to the diner scene, making them all think it speaks to them.

  32. Nick Delmacy
    Nick Delmacy | October 23rd, 2016
    +1

    I take that back already:

    "…Sure enough, Moonlight has become the new Precious, the vision of black pathos that adds emphasis on gay-bashing so that viewers can feel good about how politically-correct and sentimental they are, too.

    I dare say that gays and viewers of color should respond more critically." – Armond White

    'Moonlight' and the Myth of the Pathetic Queer

    @Ockydub

    • Randal | October 24th, 2016
      0

      There were points I understood, but to call it the new “Precious” is disrespectful in my opinion.

  33. hannibal
    hannibal | October 23rd, 2016
    0
    Nick Delmacy

    I take that back already:

    "…Sure enough, Moonlight has become the new Precious, the vision of black pathos that adds emphasis on gay-bashing so that viewers can feel good about how politically-correct and sentimental they are, too.

    I dare say that gays and viewers of color should respond more critically." – Armond White

    'Moonlight' and the Myth of the Pathetic Queer

    @Ockydub

    I read the article…I didn't get it. I wanted to agree to an extent…but he merely confused me.

  34. Nick Delmacy
    Nick Delmacy | October 23rd, 2016
    0

    At the very least it was good to see that we were not the only ones that had a problem with the 3rd act and the logic behind Black's character.

    The more I think about it, the more I have issue with THE ENTIRE LAST THIRD OF THE MOVIE.

    If confronting the Bully symbolized Chiron internally saying "Enough is Enough," why did that 'fuck it' attitude not also apply to his Sexuality? How can you have the courage to stand up to Bullies and your abusive mother, yet still be crippingly afraid to even be touched intimately for 7-10 years?!

    There was no internal religious struggle presented. He moved away from old friends and family into a new city around no one that knew him…so that wasnt the issue. Yet he's too traumatized to even go out on a date? Even with a woman to keep up appearances? Or how about an escort service? Anonymous sex with a dude? Anything!

    FLAG ON THE PLAY!

  35. hannibal
    hannibal | October 23rd, 2016
    0

    oh ok. Yeah, I agree. I have a friend who says the 3rd act was his favorite because every gay man has that young crush from when they were closeted so it resonated with him. I'm like…that's fine…but it still has to make sense.

  36. SwagJack
    SwagJack | October 23rd, 2016
    0

    Word. Not sure I'm agreeing with the Precious parallel. Kinda problematic.

  37. OckyDub
    OckyDub | October 24th, 2016
    0

    According to Barry Jenkins, because Black is so awkward, he just didn't know how to act around other men (tell a joke) with out being aggressive. I think because of the gay undertones the viewer (myself included) was expecting something sexual because that is what we are accustomed to in Black gay media.

    But again, according to the director, nothing was sexually intended about this scene.

  38. OckyDub
    OckyDub | October 24th, 2016
    0

    He actually moved his mom's to Atlanta and got her in recovery. The treatment facility "Peachtree _____" on the name tag, is here in Georgia.

  39. OckyDub
    OckyDub | October 24th, 2016
    0

    I'm just glad I saw a different movie then this author.

  40. OckyDub
    OckyDub | October 24th, 2016
    0

    Maybe having to own up and admit his sexuality meant having to acknowledge he is a "fa@@ot" psychologically / mentally and that is something we don't witness him attempting to come to terms with until the 3rd act.

    His whole life, his perceived sexuality has been a negative and after he had a positive sexual experience, the person he had it with almost caused him to get beat to death. Personally I just think you have a hard time empathizing because you weren't ever bullied and you didn't experience that type of trauma. That doesn't mean your observations or points are not good ones, BUT if he hasn't or doesn't frequent gay clubs, we didn't see him on the internet, and the time frame seems to be before gay apps (Like I had no idea what gay apps were before someone told me years after they were out), like what dude would just randomly approach him in public if he doesn't appear stereotypically gay? I've been in ATL since 2000 and that's never happened to me outside of the gym and there its only happened a handful of times.

    As far as the review in OUT, to me dude is like me hating on Beyonce because everyone else likes her and I hate how everyone fawns over her. Look at his comment in the comments section. He thinks The Skinny, is better than Moonlight, while most of all his reviews are of white queer cinema.

  41. acessential
    acessential | October 25th, 2016
    0

    That immediately made him lose all credibility from me.

  42. Nick Delmacy
    Nick Delmacy | October 25th, 2016
    0

    We do witness him come to terms with it…he says "enough is enough" the day he smashed that chair over his bully's head.

    It's not a coincidence that he gains this courage of retaliation right after his first homosexual experience. That was logically the moment that he came to terms with it.

    So you mean to tell me that a person gains the strength and confidence to confront a stronger bully, gain 50 lbs of muscle, become a drug dealing boss with underlings who fear him…yet he doesn't have the ability to at least get another hand job, even from a willing woman?!

  43. OckyDub
    OckyDub | October 25th, 2016
    0

    Naw son, coming to terms with being bullied and fighting back is not the same thing as coming to terms with one's sexuality.

    We don't know if he's been with women or not. I mean I get your points, I simply don't agree with them.

  44. Nick Delmacy
    Nick Delmacy | October 25th, 2016
    0

    And that is fine, but don't make armchair psychoanalysis of me and say that I lack empathy merely because you were bullied as a kid…you're adding Ocky Williams' personal context and motivation into the film & characters when even you admit that it wasn't actually there. It's a movie about a fictional character. Not "The Octavius Williams Story."

    Taking yourself and your own experiences completely out of it, the third act of the film is a big failure…and like you said on this podcast (at the 1:18:10 mark), it would have been better (and made a lot more sense) if this act wasn't in the film and instead existed on YouTube about completely different characters.

  45. hannibal
    hannibal | October 25th, 2016
    0

    I can't stand it…but I agree with @Nick Delmacy

  46. OckyDub
    OckyDub | October 25th, 2016
    0

    Sorry but in many ways this is my story. This is film based on non-fictional characters and is very similar to my personal story and I'm sure many other Black men out there.

    Also, I don't find it impossible a sexually confused or repressed man can go years with out his second (or third) homosexual experience simply because how Atlanta, masculinity and how the male homosexual mind are stereotyped.

    This falls into the same mindsets of those people who say, "if you're single or don't want kids, or don't want marriage, or not having a lot of sex" something must be wrong with you or they "just find it hard to believe" because a mindset or actions are different from what they consider the norm.

    At first I thought the constant images of Black in bed by himself were a waste but maybe they were there to show his acceptance of solitude (albeit still possibly lonely) and to show how he has been pretty much by himself.

  47. Nick Delmacy
    Nick Delmacy | October 25th, 2016
    0

    Again, you are adding context that wasn't established or made clear in the film. Which is fine, speculate all you want. But you can't be surprised or call ppl unempathetic when they don't fill in the same HUGE important character gaps in the movie that the storyteller failed to film or explain in their heavily advertised and teased final act.

  48. SB3
    SB3 | October 27th, 2016
    0

    Maaaan, I tried reading the comments…but I just couldn't…

    My ex thru all of my 20s did a reach around, n started jo-ing me during our senior year of hs, while we were at our other friend's house sleeping on the floor. This shyt does happen some times.

    I think yall might be over reading into Chiron. He was a damaged kid who went to juve. I had 0 surprise in seeing him getting fed up, going to juve, n getting his skin thickened

    My ex n I went to the same college. He tried his hardest to 'get str8' (never forget him tellin me how he hadn't watched gay porn for a whole week, smh) and then it was my turn at times. Fighting the obvious.

    I just think that the evolution of Chiron, a kid who never had a damn thing, esp once Juan was gone, made sense. He went from juve, after YEARS of being toldto 'man up' n stop bein a 'fag'. We all know kids from school who got that treatment.

    He overcompensated n was sooo unexpectedly happy to hear from the nice kid who he fell in love w on the damn beach.

  49. SB3
    SB3 | October 27th, 2016
    0

    N the kid who he was attracted to.

    Idk if they were trying to imply that he hadnt been w a woman (lookin like that, esp) but I 100 get him having a suuuuper soft spot in his heart for 'that' dude, from 'that' time.

    If u spend multiple years regressing something u want, and the ONE person who gave it to u calls u up, yeah, ur gonna respond.

    My ex, who I used to really feel like Id let burn, n I are now friends. Known the mofo since we were 13. We know each others families. Well.

    I say that to say, that ol boy had a lil affect on Chiron, and once Kevin? got himself together, n stopped pretending, he remembered 'that kid he liked'.

    And was able to get his number.

  50. SB3
    SB3 | October 28th, 2016
    0

    Cant relate to a crackhead mom, but yea, I can def relate to having to sneak off to steal a lil time w someone who literally had such a big azz affect on you and ur young heart. Maaan if yall only knew.

    I told him that I think abt writing our story, n he told me he thinks its a great idea. Only prob, I'm not a writer…

  51. Grant K | October 28th, 2016
    +2

    I listened to the podcast, and I think the confusion with the third act is ultimately realizing one of the main themes of the film. Who are you? I agree the movie leaves you with open ended questions, but in the first act Juan tells little Chiron that he was going to have to figure out who he is going to be for himself. Also in the third act older Kevin asks Chiron who is he. Chiron aka black has changed his outward appearance, but when he sees kevin after years, he reverts back to the shy little 15 year old he once was. I think thats why we don’t know too much about him in his older years because he doesn’t even know who he is. I feel like, and i could be reaching, that the director wanted us to kind of make up our own minds about who Chiron is.

  52. OhSheit
    OhSheit | October 30th, 2016
    0

    After seeing it a second time I will say… I liked it no more nor less but I will NOT be seeing it for a third showing for quite some time lol. I want to see if it’ll stand the test of times; I don’t want to overexpose.

    I guess my big take away was that I learned to appreciate Act III which was clearly criticized the most on here. The ending just allows me to interpret things my own way and theorize. I’ve found ways to make sense of all the issues some of us had with Act III, it’s not so unrealistic to me anymore.

  53. hannibal
    hannibal | October 30th, 2016
    0

    Did a 2nd viewing make the hug more climactic?

  54. Nick Delmacy
    Nick Delmacy | October 30th, 2016
    0

    Not gonna argue that this movie shouldnt be enjoyed…but I think too many guys are projecting themselves into this story to mask the flaws and gaps in logic.

    I'm just going off of what is presented on screen…

    Chiron almost seemed annoyed by Kevin every time he saw him. The only time he sorta seemed to like his presence was AFTER the hand job. So ppl to claim they were in LOVE after one handjob the night before he's nearly beaten to death by Kevin and Terell is laughable. He drives all the way to FL to reunite with Kevin? Why?! Because he was KINDA nice to him…until he wasn't. Kevin could have chosen NOT to pummel Chiron, but he did…repeatedly. This wasn't "love." Or maybe it is for some gay dudes. Masculinity is sexy. Maybe Masculine violence is even sexier.

    If the rationale for him bulking up and adopting Juan's persona is that he's "masculine performing" to fit into society's box for him…why did it stop with sex and virility? He built up the courage to start his own drug running empire, but he's still afraid be intimate?! With ANYONE?! I mean, if anything young Kevin taught him how to be D.L….befriend your interest and slowly court him until you make your move. So Black could remember lessons from Juan when he was 8 years old, but he couldn't remember how he was seduced by Kevin at 15 years old?! It just doesn't make ANY sense.

    I can see if the film had established that Chiron also felt "ugly" and "unattractive" like Celie in The Color Purple…Shug Avery had to convince her that she was desirable. So IF the director had established that even AFTER becoming the Sexy God that is Trevante Rhodes, Black still felt like the "ugly little faggot"…THAT would have helped the 3rd Act a LOT! Like he still sees the ugly gay kid in the mirror and Kevin was the only person that liked him despite that, before the muscles, before the trappin', before the fronts…Kevin would then be worth the drive to Florida, in my eyes.

  55. hannibal
    hannibal | October 30th, 2016
    0

    HELLO SOMEBODY! I havent seen so many mental gymnastics since the olympics. Art is subjective and good art asks you to put some interpretation into it…but people are writing their own movie into what's actually presented on screen. It sucks because criticizing the 3rd act almost comes off as if you didn't like the film, but I absolutely loved the 1st 2 acts. The 3rd act just fell short. It made no real logical sense in any way. The first 2 acts had some logic gaps, but the emotional payoff of both made you forget them. The 3rd act didn't have that luxury. It ended weak which leaves you to think about all of the weird things in it that didn't work. There are a laundry list of purely logical things that didn't make sense in act 3 that a review could be written on those alone. But people are fixated on the diner scene which had some great moments. But I mean…I could point out that although it's established that Black put his mom in the halfway house…when he went to visit her….why did it feel like they hadn't seen each other in 10 years although that was clearly not the case? I'm tired of calling BS on the 3rd act because the gays are so sensitive about it. Twas weak!

  56. Nick Delmacy
    Nick Delmacy | October 30th, 2016
    0

    [​IMG]

  57. Nick Delmacy
    Nick Delmacy | October 30th, 2016
    0

    Lastly, when Kaldrick King nearly beat Tariq to death in The LA Complex, Gays called it Domestic Violence…when Kevin did the same to Chiron in Moonlight for pretty much THE SAME D.L. REASON, they call them Love Taps…I'm confused.

    [​IMG]

  58. hannibal
    hannibal | October 30th, 2016
    0

    Nothing about it made logical sense. I guess some people say it made emotional sense…but them emotions were stupid. It just wasn't a very sensical 3rd act. It's like the 1st two acts were literal and the 3rd was figurative metaphor and people are imposing their stories onto it.

  59. OhSheit
    OhSheit | November 1st, 2016
    0

    You guys are PISSED huh? :ohhh:

  60. SB3
    SB3 | November 1st, 2016
    0

    Negro, my comment was NOT to read that deep. First off, I don't think Chiron was nearly as annoyed by Kevin as he was suspicious about why this 'popular' guy even talks to him. The beach was the beach…for obvs reasons..for horny suppressed teens.

    And both u and @hannibal pls know, that I hated the 3rd act the most also. Ijs, there's some overthinking going. Hell, I hated that ending…. *SPOILER*******

    that holding each other shyt was wack, but I'm not gonna negate the fact that there were soo many parts of this film that told parts of my…MINE..NOT SPEAKING FOR OTHER PPL…story.

    And I'll admit, I might be a lil less critical, as someone who finally got to relate to, at least, parts of a blk gay man/men's story on the screen.

    Also, I felt it was def 'implied' that Chiron prob felt unattractive and unwanted. Real talk, neither of the kids who played him were casted for their looks. Isnt that part of it, not stating the obvious?! Then we see a grown up Chiron. Pretty much 'implies' a Miss Celie complex, at least in my opinion.

    Also, I think the whole 'Kevin beating Chiron up' thing is waay too emphasized. And I think its only because they had a sexual encounter. However, ev1 on this board has been to hs, and gets how some kids will go against their nature to fit into a crowd, even at the expense of their 'friends'. (Did yall not see how they did my girl Barb on Stranger Things?!) A whole beatdown was excessive, but cmon, it was a point being made, and it was clear in Kevin's face that he hated what he was doing, just to 'save face'.

    I think a lot of this is completely over dissected.

  61. SB3
    SB3 | November 1st, 2016
    0

    Not to mention, u can't compare the actions of 15 yr olds to those of angry, closeted, repressed, baggage carrying grown azz men who beat someone out of all of the reasons mentioned above.

  62. Nick Delmacy
    Nick Delmacy | November 1st, 2016
    0

    No we're intelligent black men having a discussion about a film, any other questions?

  63. Nick Delmacy
    Nick Delmacy | November 1st, 2016
    0

    Over dissecting? That's the whole point of a film review and discussion.

    If you want to see fellas just leave one word answers, you should log into Jack'd instead, lol

    [​IMG]

  64. SB3
    SB3 | November 2nd, 2016
    0

    Negro, have several. Im still waiting on u to actually like something. For once. *other than random shyt no one else gives a fuk about*

  65. Nick Delmacy
    Nick Delmacy | November 2nd, 2016
    0

    If you don't care about the films, shows, musicians, etc that we discuss here, why do you visit the site? :what:

  66. hannibal
    hannibal | November 2nd, 2016
    0

    He's a masculine. They are usually contradictory.

  67. ColumbusGuy
    ColumbusGuy | November 2nd, 2016
    0

    Well there is more here than just that, right? Most of what gets discussed on the forums are things other than films, shows, musicians(and whatever 'etc.' is). The focus has shifted a bit because of an important movie, but c'mon now. You basically accused him of one word answers right after he posted what(is for him)a thesis! lol. Then you both get testy with one another. smh. Don't need any more good members leaving now.

    Now(do an internet version of whateverthe fuck masculine black gay men do when they 'make up' over a spat as if I would know what that is being out of the loop even on white gay shit).

    Anyway I am trying to find someone who will see this movie with me when it gets here in two weeks or else I will have to see it alone. I wonder how much of this movie is going to ring true for me, and how much will be 'universal' in it's reach-at least for any gay men of any race growing up.

  68. SwagJack
    SwagJack | November 2nd, 2016
    0

    Then ain't we all?

  69. SB3
    SB3 | November 3rd, 2016
    0

    To rabble rouse and ruffle feathers!

  70. SB3
    SB3 | November 3rd, 2016
    0

    Don't start ur foolishness!

  71. Jd | January 20th, 2017
    0

    If you read the final shooting draft written by Jenkins, the characters DO have sex in the end, albeit in the dark…
    http://a24awards.com/film/moonlight/images/MOONLIGHT.pdf

  72. acessential
    acessential | January 20th, 2017
    0

    If this is legitimate, I prefer this ending. It gives the ending many folks (or at least just me) wanted, without giving into scenes of overly graphic sex.

  73. OhSheit
    OhSheit | January 20th, 2017
    0

    but then it would still leave people wondering who was the bottom and who was the top. :ravetho:




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