Question Of The Week: Does Masculine Privilege Exist?

By OckyDub | Posted Aug 19 2013 | 43 Comments  
Masc prv 2
Question Of The Week: Masculine Privilege
 
Do you believe masculine privilege exist in the gay community?  Can you provide some examples?  Please share your thoughts or experiences.
 
 

 

 


 

About the Author
OckyDub

Octavius is a founder and editor of Cypher Avenue. He's here to help speak for us and show the world that masculine gay / bisexual men of color are not a part of the stereotypical gay normal that is seen and fed to the masses. No...we are a distinct breed, filled with character and pride. Cypher Avenue is here to show the world how we are different.

   

43 Comments Feel Free To Join The Cypher.

  1. hannibal
    Hannibal | August 19th, 2013
    +3

    YES! It totally exist! As I said before, I have yet to see on a dating ad “no masculine men please.” Masculine men are more accepted by their peers and loved ones. Masculine gay black men are far less likely to be the victims of hate crimes and the list goes on and on and on.

    • Ocky Williams | August 19th, 2013
      +1

      Personally, I have had masculine dude not want to be with me because I was “too masculine” or “hard” as he stated.

      • hannibal
        Hannibal | August 19th, 2013
        +2

        *Rolls Eyes*

        I don’t know why you are acting like this. It’s plain as day. Most men want Masculine Men. Even @nick has pointed out that in gay fiction the MASCULINE man is typically pointed out as the object of Desire(Wade from Noah’s Arc, What’s his face from The Skinny, Kaldrick King). It’s just the way it is. Everyone either wishes they were masculine or wants to be with a masculine man because they are the apex of the gay life. When was the last time a naturally masculine gay walked the streets in fear that someone would suspect they were gay and proceed to attack them? How many masculine gay men surf dating profiles and see every other profile “No masculine men please.” How many people have wanted to disassociate themselves from masculine men because they were afraid of being clocked by the public? WHenever I hear masculine men complain about their masculine burden it usually centers on “oh no…there’s not a lot of us on TV and OMG black women are leery of us.” *rolls eyes* Own the privilege.

      • Confusing One | April 18th, 2015
        0

        Just discovered this site earlier this week and read almost every article and comments section, yet this short comment is the one that made me sign up and get an account.
        I hope to comment on more things and will be making my rounds on some comments and hopefully giving coherent responses.

        Back to the comment.
        @Ocky when someone said you were too masculine or rather “too hard” How did they say it? In passing (via text) or directly to your face. After a first meet up or was after a disagreement came up. Also how did that make you feel bad?

        I say this as a regular masculine dude, I have met or spoke with some men who, maybe based on social norms I felt were “too hard” but in reality it was just childishness. There by no means feminine. Their concept of masculinity was cloaking their indecisiveness under the guise of “I don’t have to answer to another man”, them not being able to articulate what they wanted as “I am not really into talking too much since I am a man.” So yeah, I told one them you “too hard” instead of saying your just a “masculine” child. Didn’t want to bruise his ego and what not. After reading your articles and comments and listening to a 2 podcasts I am 99.9% this isn’t you but I just wanted to put that thought out there. Some dudes claim or assert masculinity in ways that are definitely not feminine, but instead just unbecoming of I want I deem to be a grown man.

  2. Kasule | August 19th, 2013
    +1

    For sure.

    Masculine privilege exists FIRST across society at-large. Masculine privilege even trumps the femininity of (feminine) women, especially in professional settings.

    In the gay community, it most certainly exists. I think masculinity is inherently alluring for all gay males (I think the reasons are self-evident). Masculinity allows gay men to be discreet, which is a major professional and personal asset across contexts. Masculinity also makes straight dudes more likely to accept you – which is a major personal and professional advantage.

    Feminine men (gay or straight) violate social norms, which will always be more of a disadvantage than an advantage. Further, although they might constitute a majority of gay men, I think feminine men are more often disadvantaged in society, the way that women (a 51% majority) also experience disadvantages. So feminine gay men have influences dragging them down; masculine gay men have influences bringing them up.

    I do (obviously) understand the tension between feminine gay men getting more media visibility (being a feminine gay dude doesn’t seem like a disadvantage through that lens!) than masculine gay men, who are more inherently discreet.

    Yet overall, the lack of media play for masculine gay men might be inherent to their discreet (masculine) privilege; feminine men get the visibility – and the shaft in the end.

    (and thanks for a great, interesting question).

    • Ocky Williams | August 19th, 2013
      0

      Great points concerning our overall society, however; in the GAY community does a “masculine privilege” exist? I am not sure if it does.

      • Kasule | August 19th, 2013
        0

        Well yeah, I mean, aren’t gay dudes usually attracted to masculinity – inherently?

        Just look at porn or images of men gay dudes find attractive: aren’t these guys usually ripped and masculine? It’s usually not feminine men who are the image of desire or beauty.

        In which case, doesn’t that put masculine gay men at an advantage in terms of attractiveness, since it’s usually masculinity that gay men find alluring, in the first place?

        • Ocky Williams | August 19th, 2013
          0

          Muscles don’t equal masculinity. Gay porn is full of effeminate men, muscular or otherwise (twinks anyone).

          However if I use your logical break down that means effeminate men don’t have sex or cohabitate in homosexual relationships because nobody finds them attractive or desirable. We both know this is not true.

          So again, in my opinion I don’t believe a masculine privilege exist in GAY culture.

          • Kasule | August 19th, 2013
            0

            I didn’t mean to communicate that effeminate men are strictly undesirable – of course they have sex and cohabitate. I meant to communicate that masculine men have an advantage, but far from a monopoly.

            Yes, you made good points about porn; I guess I have to give up that line of argument haha.

            Still, don’t you think that Americans (gay straight man woman) are socialized to find masculinity to be inherently desirable in a man? Would that affect gay culture as well – making masculine men at least slightly more desirable?

  3. SB3
    African King | August 19th, 2013
    0

    Yes. Period.

  4. Nick Delmacy | August 19th, 2013
    +1

    To play Devil’s Advocate, I would argue that Effeminate Men have MORE Privilege within the Gay Community itself than masculine men. Remember the original question said WITHIN THE GAY COMMUNITY, not the entire society in general or homophobia from heterosexual bigots.

    True, masculine men may be more desirable when it comes to dating but that’s not all there is to being gay. Within the gay community, feminine men definitely get more love, respect and acceptance (aka Feminine Privilege).

    Effeminate men are featured in more of the films and web series.

    Effeminate men are allowed to say the most disrespectful things about other gay men and it be considered “funny” yet when a masculine man even mentions trigger words he’s an effemiphobe, internally homophobic or in denial.

    Masculine men are constantly accused of hiding or pretending to be masculine. “You need to just be yourself,” is what many effeminate gay men tell them. Implying that their masculinity is just a front.

    Effeminate men in general have more fans and supporters than out masculine gay men. Check the twitter profiles for Ru-Paul/Patrick-Ian Polk/Bry’nt versus most other out masculine celebs on Twitter…no comparison. They get more love.

    Masculine men are constantly accused of being on the Down Low or HIV spreading Bisexuals, often by effeminate men as well.

    Masculine men are expected to be TOPS. When they betray that expectation, they are ridiculed, even by feminine men who are bottoms or versatile themselves.

    When masculine gay men choose not to participate in the salacious sex-driven gay pride events featuring flamboyant fems on floats in public, they get bashed and accused of being internally homophobic.

    The list goes on. Its not just about sexual attraction.

    • hannibal
      Hannibal | August 19th, 2013
      0

      Effeminate men are featured in more of the films and webseries – Is this a problem? The solution is easy. Masculine men need to make themselves more available. And two of the biggest gay icons of television are masculine men (Kaldrick King and Omar)

      Effeminate men are allowed to say the most disrespectful things about other gay men and it be considered “funny” – well usually isn’t there intention to be funny?

      Masculine men are constantly accused of hiding or pretending to be masculine. “You need to just be yourself,” is what many effeminate gay men tell them. Implying that their masculinity is just a front. – isn’t it for some?

      Effeminate men in general have more fans and supporters than out masculine gay men. – how many out gay masculine entertainers are there?

      Masculine men are constantly accused of being on the Down Low or HIV spreading Bisexuals. – again, aren’t a lot of them and isn’t this coming from the heteros?

      Masculine men are expected to be TOPS. When they betray that expectation, they are ridiculed, even by feminine men who are bottoms or versatile themselves.- never seen such a thing.

      When masculine gay men choose not to participate in the salacious sex-driven gay pride events featuring flamboyant fems on floats in public, they get bashed and accused of being internally homophobic. – some of them are.

      None of this negates that being masculine has it’s own set of privileges.

      • Nick Delmacy | August 19th, 2013
        -1

        This response merely proves my point.

        • hannibal
          Hannibal | August 19th, 2013
          0

          How so?

    • SB3000 | August 19th, 2013
      +2

      Well I guess I’ll go back to watching the ID channel now cus @Nick just pulled out the wrap it up box w that one.

      • Nick Delmacy | August 20th, 2013
        -1

        LOL yeah man. Outside of dating, I have no kind of privilege in the Gay community as a masc man. We learned that from doing Discreet City. This is sspecially true if you include white gays. Masculine men take a backseat and are dismissed left and right when dating/sex isn’t involved.

  5. ControlledXaos
    Black Pegasus | August 20th, 2013
    +2

    Looks like @Nick already said everything I wanted to say and MORE 🙂
    so I’ll make myself useful by doing something else.
    tumblr_mhcmt9AriK1rue90ro1_500.gif

  6. jamaicanbiglove | August 21st, 2013
    0

    Applause to you kasule and hannibal. You both made my points. There is no doubt that masculine male privilege and to say otherwise goes against fact. In the western hemisphere we subcribe to view of masculinity as the ideal and something to be respected. I have never heard a man say I wish I was less masculine. No one says no fats , no masculine guys. Masculine men get more advantages in society.

    • Ocky Williams | August 21st, 2013
      0

      So in the gay community (which is what was asked in the question), outside of sex, dating or being desirable (which seems to be the only points given) what privileges or advantages do masculine gay men have in the gay community? Can someone please tell me? It seems to me that most (not all) of the feedback is coming from a place of being emotionally rejected.

      • hannibal
        Hannibal | August 21st, 2013
        0

        I’d be willing to bet masculine gay black men are far less likely to be attacked on the streets than fem men.

      • SB3000 | August 21st, 2013
        0

        Yea..I cant even believe we’re still having this convo.

        We get it, masc met are often more sought after romantically and sexually. Fem men are always the first ones talkin about wanting Supermascman to fly down, scoop them up, and treat them like some princess from their fantasies.

        Being more sought after in a bed doesnt imply privilege.

        • hannibal
          Hannibal | August 21st, 2013
          0

          I’ve brought up the question of whether or not masculine gay men are safer in public than fem men…no one has touched it.

          • SB3000 | August 22nd, 2013
            0

            As for gay bashing, yes. The fact that I walk down the street and no1 thinks for a second i’m a ‘fuking fag’, has allowed me to avoid gay bashing. But at the end of the day, this doesnt mean that Im privileged within the gay community. Thats just 1 privilege I have as a masculine dude.

            • hannibal
              Hannibal | August 22nd, 2013
              0

              You guys are confusing me. On one hand you seem to ADMIT there are privileges…but then in the same paragraph will say that there aren’t any. Then will say that there’s only sexual privileges…but when other privileges are pointed out you say “well we mean withing the gay community”…whatever that means. I’m confused. Do you have privileges do to being masculine or not?

              • SB3000 | August 30th, 2013
                0

                Just saw this..but yes, i have 2 piviledges that are pretty consistent as a masc dude..

                1. Generally speaking, being more sought after, sexually/romantically. Even though, as @ockydub said, there are plenty of masc men who have issues with being with other masc men. Believe it or not, a lot of them, regardless of how much we talk about abandoning hetero gender roles within homo relationships, still have issues w accepting the fact that theyre both ‘the man’ in the relationship.

                2. We are much less likely to be randomly gay bashed.

  7. bpaisle
    Byron P. | August 21st, 2013
    +2

    I think that with most things, there are privileges and drawbacks to it. I think that effiminate gay guys and black women label masculine gay guys as being down-low, closet cases. If your an avid reader on CA then you know that clearly this is not the case. Just because I’m a masculine guy, this does not mean that I think that I am better or above effiminate guys in any way. Now, with saying this, I do not think that my masculinity should be a cause for persecution. If people consider the fact that I can walk around and go places without being “clocked” as gay a privilege, then I’ll take it. This applies to society as a whole. When it comes to the gay community, I do not think that a masculine privilege really exists. Depending on who your asking, we’re not seen as being better than effiminate guys. Masculine men are desired sexually but in most other aspects of the gay community, we’re at the bottom of the barrel. That includes tv, news media/ social media, the social scene, etc. The list goes on. In spite of this, I embrace my masculinity. I am not in any way inclined to grab a purse and run on over to the salon to get a fresh eyebrow arching(not that all effiminate guys do this lol).

  8. thinker | August 22nd, 2013
    +2

    I’m LOL @ these comments bruh. @ockydub Hell nah. Outside of sex, lust, and desire NO. You made excellent points.

    There is such a divide in the GAY community along the lines of masc and fem and to pretend that in the GAY community, there is privilege is laughable. Masculinity is desirable for coitus but secretly despised by those who aren’t naturally masculine because of the “perceived” privilege they think masculine guys get in SOCIETY. There is a tendency to want to tear down a brutha who isn’t fem but you’ve covered that with your questions.

  9. SB3000 | August 22nd, 2013
    +2

    For real, for real, if we had so much privilege, then this site wouldnt be so necessary. Just sayin…

    • Nick Delmacy | August 22nd, 2013
      0

      EXACTLY! Even the mere existence of this site and Discreet City has been seen as a threat by many effeminate gay men. Even if they’ve never been here or just skimmed over a couple articles. To them, diversity is only a good thing if it also caters to them.

      So you get sex-driven sites like BGClive where messy effeminate men and Trans women call each other all kinds of disparaging hurtful names as “jokes” while overtly lusting after masculine, down low, and/or “thug” men (aka Trade) are totally fine and “good for the community.” Okay, yeah.

      If masc men DO have a privilege, its the privilege of not having to be a part of that embarrassingly messy “lifestyle.” If that makes me internally homophobic, so be it. It just ain’t my steelo.

      • SB3000 | August 25th, 2013
        0

        Yo can we just get gay married already!?!? lol…U be making so much sense man..I fuks w u n Ocky!

  10. PAPIMARCOVIBE | August 23rd, 2013
    0

    most def masculine men are privileged, i was on vacation and not being messy but was accused of going on a sex spree in D.C. and other places as i visited family but because i am masculine, some one i deal with was okay with that cause i deliver in the bed room and that is the standard. or you will be in your work space and if your t is no clocked by straight people the gay people clock you just because you are even handed about the way you talk to people or i was eating lunch with my brother who is straight and married but not super masculine and wears dreads and the lady who was black and young broke her neck to talk to me and marginalized my brother because maybe his wedding ring or the long hair because i wear my head shaved. so yes you have the pick of whom you want or you get to define the relationship if you want because the value of a effeminate man is devalued due to all the negatives that stereotype we see ” snap queen, over the top with a purse or female hi heel shoes, ect ect. but it is what it is.

    • Eric | August 23rd, 2013
      0

      I promised myself I wouldn’t get sucked into this phuckery because we talk about too much around here. But, yes, there’s a masculine advantage. Take Magic Johnson’s son, for example. Coming out was a supreme act of courage especially given who his father is.

      But man…if you thought the straight folks were ridiculing his femininity and his purse…then you should have heard what the gay people were saying. They called him all kinds of “faggot, and girl, and fat queen” etc. And this is from WITHIN the gay community. And he NEVER would have had to endure those barbs from is own kind if he had looked the part of the “unclockable” gay man. Or more of the part of what we would expect a hall of fame athlete’s son to look, sound, and act like.

      And the vicious attack on Johnson’s son, from within the gay community, is systemic of what effeminate men consistently face OUTSIDE of sex, dating, or being desirable. And it has nothing to do with their representation in films and web series.

      When Earvin Johnson III sashayed down the street, with his Louis Vuitton bag in full view of the world, he was attacked, by other gay men, simply for being who he was. And do you really think he’s the only fem guy who has to go through that bullshit?

      So don’t sit up here and tell us there’s no such thing as masculine gay privilege, within the gay community, outside of the bedroom. That simply doesn’t make any sense.

      • Ocky Williams | August 23rd, 2013
        +1

        Eric please check yourself. The comments of “fat queen, faggot,and girl” were flowing from many fem dudes, drag queens and transgenders on the internet and blogosphere who were critiquing his fashions & fabulousness from head to toe (like many of them do) . How does this equal masculine privilege? Regardless of gender orientation people say mean and messy things about each other.

        Riddle me this…if he was masculine and had the same white dude on his arm plenty of str8’s and gays would still have had something negative to say. Again how does this equal privilege? Lame example.

        • Eric | August 23rd, 2013
          0

          No, Ocky. That’s a lame rebuttal. Based on the criteria of this argument, we’re talking about the reaction from within the gay community. So the answer to your riddle is: it doesn’t matter what straight folks would have said. Likewise, the interracial component doesn’t matter because, based on the premise of this discussion, we are discussing masc privilege within the gay community and not interracial relationships. Stay on topic.

          “Faggot, fat queen, etc.,” are not fashion critiques. They are personal attacks. If the fem guys from the blogosphere wanted to attack his clothes then they simply would have done that. But gays, and not just fem ones, did far more than that.

          I specifically laid out how masculine privilege would have been an advantage. I’ll do it again and make it plainer. If Earvin Johnson III had been more like Jason Collins then his coming out would have been more praised within the gay community instead of ridiculed. Clear enough?

          So, no, Ocky. You check YOUR self, sir.

          • C-Dotti | August 25th, 2013
            0

            loll You kind of went in there lmao I defended Magic Johnson’s son when the gays were talking $hit. I don’t have a problem with fems. It’s just most of them don’t know how to act. Magic’s son carried himself well though. I don’t care about being flamboyant. He was well behaved. I hope he stays that way. The nasty gays talking $hit are the one’s working at Wal-Mart and McDonald’s and can’t get ahead.

  11. Nick Delmacy | August 23rd, 2013
    0

    Good to know that men like @sb3000 @thinker @blackpegasus and @bpaisle are out there thinking for themselves!

    • hannibal
      Hannibal | August 23rd, 2013
      +3

      Whoa whoa whoa, flag on the play! Just because they agree with you the are the only ones thinking for themselves? In fact, wouldn’t that be just opposite?

    • bpaisle
      Byron P. | August 23rd, 2013
      -1

      @nick for sure man. You have to look at it from all sides. Just being “the most sought after” doesn’t come out to mean privilege. There are drawbacks and positives to everything. If the drawbacks outweigh the positives then it should not be considered a privilege.

  12. Jonah Darnell | August 24th, 2013
    +2

    It seems like this question is a slight trap. This probably should’ve been an opinion piece rather than an open question due to the severe scrutiny of those who would say that masc men do have more privilege in the gay community.

    The way this question has been narrowed and strictly contextualized backs everyone into a corner to agree with a certain perspective (i.e. your response must answer only in terms of within the gay community and it mustn’t answer in terms of sexual or romantic desire). In short, this question is leading. I’m sorry, but on these grounds I have to object… Unless, we can return to the ORIGINAL question without all of the over-contextualizing or we can stop speaking in generalities and start examining masc privilege on a true case by case basis…

    For me,

    Masc gay men have privilege with both masc and fem men on multiple registers including friendship/companionship, relationship/partnership, sexual roles, etc…

    In media designed by and for gay men, masc gay men are constantly marginalized and underrepresented.

    Masc gay men do receive admiration for their discreetness by people who wish to go undetected and/or remain “mess” free…

    Masc gay men are put under a certain amount of pressure to present themselves a certain way… Paradoxically, masc men are encouraged to “act” more effeminate one minute, then be alpha males the next

    True, there are exceptions to every point…

  13. SB3000 | August 25th, 2013
    0

    Not that it’s on topic..but I wanted to let the fellas on the ave kno that 8/24 was my 31st bday..and my coming out day! Told my fam n closest friends! Feels great..esp knowing that masc men are out here n Ima get me 1..1 day lol

    • SB3000 | August 27th, 2013
      0

      O so yall are just gone send me over there to have a seat or 2?!?! smh..thought i was special for a minute

  14. Manavie86
    Shammy Thy Manavie | September 6th, 2013
    0

    Yes it does, from my POV as a gay bottom. Men, regardless their orientation, are visual being, same goes to women. That’s our primal instinctive behavior when looking for a mate. Woman want men with superiority in term of masculinity because it’s demonstrate dominance of the male and thus she want to incorporate that traits in her future offspring. When it comes to gay community, gay men attracted to men, and their primal instinct will lead them to find men that fulfilled the definition of masculinity. Masculinity is not just physical but also personality. Some gay men like to date their carbon copy but some doesn’t. Like me i prefer men with more superiority in term of masculinity compared to be. It gave me the sense of secure. Every men have their insecurities and require mate that can make them feel secure, which in some cases demonstrated in the male masculinity. In relationship it’s like yin and yang, the attraction, some attracted to similarity but some love the opposite side of them. That’s what i can think of, free to comment. lol

    • hannibal
      Hannibal | September 6th, 2013
      +1

      I was sort of with you until it started to sound like you were equating bottoms with women. That’s the point at which you lost me.




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