In the world of mainstream media, blogs, vlogs, websites and social media; phrases or terms like toxic masculinity, hyper-masculinity, #MasculinitySoFragile, misogyny, sexism and homophobia are in my opinion often misused for the silliest of situations. Not in this case pertaining to the disturbing video below.
It has been scientifically proven that those who identify as heterosexual, who aggressively outwardly express anti-homosexual attitudes are usually attempting to hide and deflect their own bisexual or homosexual tendencies. I’m not saying this is the case here but it is very possible.
The disturbed individual who pointed his gun at the African American man exiting the store, who he referred to as a “dick in the booty ass nigga”, goes by the Twitter handle @Binswanson and his Facebook page is Flex Swan Finesse. His Twitter account under this handle has now been made private but not before the video uploaded went viral.
He not only had to prove to those in the car with him how intact his masculinity is by speaking and displaying his disdain for homosexuals; he also was compelled to record the criminal act and share it with his 2000 plus followers and the world via social media. Once it went viral, he replied to the understandable outrage by stating, “All the gay people mad. “I don’t give a fuck about none of that shit y’all saying I hate gay niggas save that shit.” He also went on to say in a Periscope video that he would have shot the man who was wearing the “tight” pants.
What you witnessed was masculine fragility. Even though the sexuality of the man who had the gun pulled on him is not known, this was gay bashing. This was bullying. This was menacing. Also on a small scale, this was terrorism.
The Detroit police department is actively investigating this incident so of course this hoodlum idiot is going to be arrested and possibly jailed. He possibly could even be prosecuted under Federal Hate Crime laws. Unfortunately this will add another Black body to the US prison industrial institutional system.
I could make this about homophobia in the Black community perpetrated by Black men but I don’t feel like reading a bunch of “white people do it too” comments, so I’ll finish with just two points.
First; why is it that gay-bashers cowardly hunt in packs? If you view non-heterosexuals as weaker than or easy targets, why not single handily commence the attack? Why is a group typically needed to harass, violate, physically attack and kill a homosexual? Shouldn’t a anti-homosexual masculine man be able to attack a homosexual without weapons, tricks, or sneak attacks on his own? Isn’t that a better way to show stronger hyper-masculine prowess?
Secondly, (and I know this is offensive to most) at what point can it be universally acknowledged that anti-non-heterosexual attitudes and resentments are rooted in religion? Anti-homosexual beliefs are taught and passed down from generation to generation. Even passive tolerance is just as much damaging. “Hate the sin (homosexuality), love the sinner” or “I’m against discrimination but I’m also against the Gay Lifestyle”, is still oppressive and dangerous. By the way, what the fuck is the “gay lifestyle”?
These attitudes and ideologies heard by the minds of non-heterosexuals at an early age can lead to psychological dysfunctions, depression, suicide, STI transmissions, substance abuse, self-hate and deceptions from being in the closet.
Worse, these attitudes continue to influence and contribute to violence inflicted upon homosexuals and transgenders such as the case with the massacre at the Pusle night club in Orlando, FL.
I’ve had a gun pulled on me during a carjacking, it’s surreal and terrifying. To the Black man in the video who had the gun pulled on him… stay strong brotha.
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Detroit police are asking the victim or if you know the person with the gun to call 313-596-2200. Click Man points gun at person in suspected gay hate crime Twitter video to see the news report video of the story.
This was some disgusting sh*t…
To be really real, it is time as a group of "masculine" brothas to acknowledge that muh f*ckas is on to something with this toxic masculinity stuff.
Getting G-checked in the hood is part of everyday life for ppl that's in the hood I just recently had to restrain myself from beatin on this lil 5 foot nothin dude at this liquor store in Flint. All I did was get out the car and ol dude started yelling"Beat a Nikka ass in some flip flops" multiple times… I was obviously the only Nikka with some Jordan flip flops on, it was aslo obvious that this dude was suffering from the toxicity of a hyper-masculinized projection. Check another Nikka on his manhood in order to reaffirm your own… Which is a masculinized endeavor. Homie thought cuz he was with a bunch of his boys that they would back him if I wanted to make to beef legit… I ended up peacing up all the Nikkas he was with because I was in my hood and they all been knowing me since I was a lil Nikka except for him. They started saying "Don't mind him" because they all know what could've happened.
I done had shotguns and glocks pulled on me, done had Nikkas say I wasn't a real man/strong man cuz I didn't perfectly meet the parameters of one in their opinion. None of this is new and it happens on both the macro/extreme level such as this filmed example and even on micro/banal interactions.
I'm just waiting on a time when I can be a man and not have to beat somebody ass to prove it.
100dap
THANK YOU for sharing this.
No doubt Ock, thanks for starting this convo.
I get that there are some incendiary attacks levied against men who have masculine personalities, myself included… and it can make it very difficult to actually have this kind of convo to parse out what is toxic masculinity as opposed to just masculinity. I like that there is some cross talk to help compartmentalize these behaviors. I dont think anybody deserves to be attacked for being femme or for being masc. We're all in the same bull together. We all are trying to discover and live in our true identities… A lot of times masculine dudes just get misread… tho heavily desired… and a lot of times masculine dudes are performing a kind of misguided iteration of masculinity which has been the fuel to start wars and obliterated anything that's deemed as weak/weakening.
I've grown up in Flint, MI my whole life… I learned how to and how to not be a man in Flint…. Which pretty much means I learned how to be a n*gga. My performance as a n*gga gets me a lot of flack from women and femme performing people as I represent what mostly resembles the patriarchy to them, even when I approach with the best intentions. That can be tiring and exhausting and can lead to more attacks on the other side. We don't need that either.
I really applaud and appreciate the criticality with which these posts address this complication of masculinity vs hyper/toxic masculinity. Looking forward to more discussions like this. Hate that my mans with the pop had to be centered in the crosshairs like that. smh…
We have a much greater enemy to contend with.
Btw… I'm dead that this n*gga really holdin a pistol while trying to stabilize himself on that walker… lmfao… That's some Detroit sh*t 4real!!!! Homie really got a point to prove… smh… Sit yo ol broke leg ass down!! And he from Plymouth?!?! Aint no real bangers ever been from Plymouth… smh… Mofo's flexing for Facebook…
The bubble bath pic got me.
I applaud YOU for intelligently navigating and understanding your circumstances. Living in Chicago I see young gay/bi black men, fem or masc, escape from the South and West sides of town from homophobia and hyper-masculinity-mixed-with-guns, to the North (re: white gay) side of town. Though they run into a race-class wall from the landed-gentry gay community, they at least have small options to "disappear" in a large city like mine, New York, LA, etc. Then there's all the men like you in cities like Flint, and rusted out states like Michigan, who don't have many "escape" options and have to "stand their ground," dealing with their environment as it is and as you've done.
On one hand, it made me think this is why we have to push and fight so hard to keep what FEDERAL protections we've gained under President Obama, and need Federal solutions for opportunity as local and state governments can't be relied on or trusted to protect and nurture the human rights and potential of those in places like Flint. The abused need a nationwide-shield so that they have safe harbors wherever they go.
And sadly, it'll get worse before getting better. As the promised opportunities and jobs from both political candidates for president don't get fulfilled, we can expect those with no sense, education or hope, like this fool and his Facebook bravado, to be just another one of the impoverished beating up on the other impoverished, doing white supremacy's dirty work of suppression for itself. And we can't have a talk about TOXIC masculinity if we aren't going to or are unwilling to discuss black masculinity in general, both in the black communities and in Amerca at large.
Thank you very much for this post man! …. You just said all this sh*t!!! Everything u just identified is pretty much what I'm thinking through while writing this dissertation… U tryna help edit?!? lbvs… haha…
BRUUUUHHHHH!!!! LMFAO…. Since when do gang bangers take bubble baths?!?!? And got the Gucci Guilty sitting next to the burner… And he pullin up on dudes talking bout d*ck in the booty?!?!? I cant even… I wont even… smh…
He was tying to be like….
Oh yeah. He’s trade indeed.
But how can that be?! Dudes on our site keep saying that Black People aren't Homophobic!!!
:ravetho::troll:
Really dude? LOL you just gonna copy and paste replies huh?
It applied to both posts…
I saw this when it was first posted. Sorry but the comment section was funny as shyt and people went hard too. Twitter is what reported him, even exposed all his hangout stops and home. Just went in!
I'm not masculine but from my limited experience masculinity shouldn't be forced. If you're trying, you're not.
To answer your first point, they oppress in packs because they don’t know if the dude they’re about to bash is – like my older cuz – good with them hands or has a weapon.
Good article Ocky. I think the incident depicted in the above video shows very clearly what happens to clockable and/or openly gay black men on a daily/regular basis in typical black or predominately black areas (wastelands) otherwise known as “the hood”.
The only black gay/bisexual men who are “safe” in typical black or mostly black areas are those who are closeted and can pass for straight or those who are on the down-low. All others (those black gay/bisexual men who cannot or don’t want to pass for straight) need to leave black or predominately black areas ASAP if they want to survive not to mention thrive.
Expect homophobic abuse like that shown in the video to increase in and/or near “the hood” as time goes on. Many so-called straight black men with little or no education/training, long criminal records, no resources and no chance to improve their lives are filled with rage and hatred and they will take their sick frustrations out on whoever they think is an easy target. If you are a black gay man who cannot pass for straight, or don’t want to, don’t be a victim of some random straight black man’s (or straight black woman) rage.
If you are a clockable and/or openly gay black man and you feel you have to live (shop, work, etc.) in a potentially dangerous area or environment learn what the law is in your state or jurisdiction regarding carrying a concealed firearm and act accordingly. If you have a firearm or are thinking about purchasing one, make sure you are always on the right side of the law in your state/jurisdiction.The choice is yours.
PS: If you are a clockable or openly gay black man and you live in or near a typical black or predominately black area you are a target. The question is what are you going to do about it? The black gay man in the video could have been shot and killed by that thug.
I would never tell "clockable" men to go defenseless or to not buy a gun if they feel that's necessary for their safety. But at what point do fem and "clockable" men get to live and just be themselves without having to hide, arm up, or fake their personas? At what point do the rest of society get to live without the business end of toxic male's (black or white) weapon pointed at us? A lot of people won't speak up against these fools like this video fool out of some misguided sense of "black unity" or some hotep-culture/twisted religious belief that fem dudes "deserve it" or "have it coming to them". Those that co-sign on this fool's behavior need to remember these homophobic, nihilistic armed clowns might be pointing guns at fem dudes today, they'll turn their arms on anyone and everyone else tomorrow.
That's a plot twist I didn't see coming.
I didn't think he had a conscience.
When I tell you that many men have suffered by the hands of a fem gay man that they underestimated. You don't want to come for a seasoned vet gay man because he's probably learned how throw hands.
What was this? Video has been removed.
I cannot read the perpetrator’s mind but I doubt he’s remorseful over what he did. This thug is likely trying to appeal to a judge who will be deciding his fate to give him a lighter sentence. That’s what this “apology” to the LGBTQ community is about.
In the “apology” video I watched yesterday on another site, the perpetrator said (among other things) that he was especially remorseful because he “knew” the victim. In other words, he uttered a nasty anti-gay slur AND pulled a gun on a gay man he knew. Him knowing the gay man he assaulted makes the crime worse IMO. This thug knows he’s in big trouble. There’s no “he said, he said” to sift through because the video speaks for itself.
Use your powers of discernment. Don’t take things at face value (not saying anyone on here did that). Learn to read between the lines and don’t go for the “okeydoke” (as they used to say).
The plot thickens…
Ya know,
Some of us in the LGBTQ community of people of color are really fractured. It can’t bother you that a fem gay is being “bashed” when your website has clickbait headlines every few days that always seem to imply that fem gays are the absolute most terrible thing put on the face of the earth ever. Those who hate gays see hardly any difference in a fem gay man and a masculine gay man. They see a gay man and they are filled with hatred and disgust. It’s very similar in my opinion to how racists can see a well educated, well dressed black man and have the same disdain they do for a “thug” in street clothes that they know nothing about. Until we start seeing each other as humans & respecting the diversity within, we can’t fight the hatred that’s outside. I used to have a problems with fems because I didn’t like the part of myself that was associated with being gay, anything less than a hypermasculine man. I let go of that a long time ago. I have friends of all ages, races, gender identities and they register on many different places on that scale of human gender.
I understand this site was created to celebrate the masculine “normal” side of the life that is so often ignored by the mainstream & our own community (because sometimes the other side looks on the more masculine brothers as fakes, phonies or trying to fit in) but it needs to be about love. IMO.
Your overall reply was kinda long so that means you took time to type it. Can you devout the same amount of time and look on our main page and find the click bait headlines and subsequent articles that bash fem gays or portrays them as the most terrible thing put on earth?
If you can't that means they don't exist and you're projecting and creating a false narrative.
Many times fem gays (just like the white people you referenced in your message) think that anything that is not championing, promoting, catering to or pointing our double standards and hypocrisy in the Fem dominated LGBTQ community automatically means (and reads) anti-fem.
Having compassion for humans doesn't mean we don't have differences, individual and group points of view. But back to your specific comment…again let me ask the questions:
"find the click bait headlines and subsequent articles that bash fem gays or portrays them as the most terrible thing put on earth."
Is that DL fool still milking his 15 minutes of infamy?
I tried watching, but then I was like "Bye, Fellatia!" Lol
Can you please explain how you did this because it would help others dealing with this same issue. Both masc and fem dudes, mind you.
Wrong. They don't even post frequently enough for you to see anything "every few days." Plus I've never seen anything here that "bashes" fem dudes. I'm pretty sure that would have been called out.
Bad parallel. You're overlooking what's considered masculine privilege. Those who hate gays don't always "see" gays. There's no monolith personality trait or hyper gaydar that enables folks to see "gayness." The logic you're proposing is just as faulty as the Black lives matter vs Blue lives matter argument. You might not be able to discern my sexuality by looking at or observing me, but I can't hide the fact that I'm Black.
Except maybe naturally effeminate guys.
It is interesting that you posted this in a thread that is pretty much the exact opposite of the 'clickbait' you refer to. I have lately seen several articles just like this one-that are basically concerned about what happens to black gay men or in fact, any black man who is perceived as gay-which would pretty much be about all femme gays, right? And just because you had a problem with femme gay men because of you own negative issues, does not mean that all masc gay men have the same issues.
Also what I have picked up is that the problems people here tend to have with femme gay black men is not that they are necessarily femme, it is the negative behaviors that seems to go along with femme gay men(a broad generalization of course) and the official 'viewpoint' of black gay men, the narrative of black gay men, being determined by femme black gay men.
*In most critiques by members and the founders of the site, any 'femme' stuff is often accompanied by criticism of the stereotypical 'rachet' talk or behavior. In the post on the gay men with Jacob Kohinoor where the men are talking about masculine men, the one who got the most criticism by far was the blonde one with the nasty attitude, even though others were just as femme if not more so. Even when Nick does his 'gay voice', it is usually in the context of the person exhibiting negative things..'reading to filth, dragging, hunty, miss Thang, etc.'…which is related to how these behaviors being expressed by 'some' femme men are the leading view of how some of the world sees black gay men.
It is actually about 'broadening' the scope of how black gay men are seen and is actually about including different types of men other than just femme men-who dominate the narrative. Every now and then yeah, something is said that crosses over a bit into unfair criticism/joking IMO, but nobody is perfect and I do not see that as a persistent theme here.
Hold on. It's only taken as the "official" narrative because alternative voices are invisible or quiet.
OR marginalized, pushed aside, called fake, acting straight, and self hating because they aren't fem nor subscribe to the culture.
How is having a website and producing podcasts for 5 years being invisible or quiet?
If Cypher Ave (in its current platform and technical appearance) was like all the other Fem leaning Black Gay Websites and forums, this website and its membership would be through the stratosphere.
But WHY are they invisible or quiet? Because they would be vilified by the ones who control the narrative, and face unique problems (and possible a greater backlash) because they could be seen as more of a 'threat' to the black community because they are not as visible and easily identifiable-they might be labeled and blamed as 'DL' or even likened to spies. Many people want to know the gay people around them-to be able to spot them and identify them. They may feel threatened that they cannot do this, and the 'less clockable' gay men could face a particular backlash.
Also there is a reason there is not a white equivalent to Cypher Avenue. The White Elite gays who set the agenda-which is again about 'queerdom' and can be hostile to views about masculinity(or anything that is against their agenda) is too powerful and would crush such a site. The black gay community that decides the narrative has not coalesced and strengthened to the point where it can do that IMO.
The stronger, more well funded, more accepted and powerful and included an organization is, the more power it has to crush opposition within groups that the organization represents.
My original assertion stands. @Ockydub there are more 'unclockable' guys than 'clockable' men, yet this minority is dominating the 'gay agenda' because the majority is too busy peddling the views of the heterosexual community as it's own. I would say Cypher Avenue is the exception that proves the rule on visibility. @ColumbusGuy you're absolutely right. The biggest challenge for the 'unclockable' community is the conventional straight community NOT the gay community. As @Ockydub has noted many times on the podcast the gay community has a complicated relationship with masculinity. I believe the current bifurcated status quo is optimal for both parties. It's incumbent on the 'unclockable' community to embrace their 'clockable' brothers not the reverse.
That's implied. The fact that effeminate does not equate to "gay" is not something most folks can wrap their heads around.
You're right, I guess I meant every few weeks or months, not days. I enjoy the articles because I don't mind reading things written by people who share a different viewpoint than I do. I actually like it because it expands my thinking in ways I could never do by just being exposed to things exactly in my own paradigm.
I wasn't necessarily speaking about a crime where someone is attacked because their perceived to be gay because of the way they walk, talk or dress. I was speaking more to people who want to vote on laws or write legislation that discriminates against gays in broader ways. I was speaking about the hatred that people have when you say the word gay. They don't care if it's two gym rats that are buff & masc or if it's two fems or some combination….they hate they idea of gay men or lesbian women or some other lgbtq individual being protected from job, housing or adoption discrimination because they have moral issues with those of different sexual orientations.
The race stuff is much deeper. I've noticed for decades that when I'm watching a game the white commentators seem to praise white athletes as if they're God's gift to a league but the black players literally have to work twice as hard to get half the recognition. Some white parents would rather their daughters marry a poor & struggling white guy opposed to Daquan the multimillionaire. That to me is a blanket issue with race and not even considering the person. That's the relationship I was attempting to compare.
And I agree with you about the Black Lives Matters/Blue Lives Matters comparison. There's no doubt that blue lives matter, but blue lives have not been systematically targeted and made to feel like hunted animals with a need to be fearful just for driving or walking down the street. And if so, that kind of comes with the territory or being law enforcement. I have a right to be black and feel safe and not feel like I might not make it home just because of the color of my skin.
I don't have a problem with the site, I wouldn't be here enjoying it if I did. This was just something I noticed. Maybe I'm wrong, that's a definite possibility. It's all about perception. I feel a site like this is completely necessary. There needs to be a place where guys who don't identify with things we mostly associate with femininity are able to learn that there are others like them that don't conform to the stereotypes most people have about gayness. If they want to write fem bashing articles every day all day, it's their site and their right. Is that their total agenda here? No, I don't think so at all. But a pro-masculine site by it's nature isn't fair and balanced. There are plenty of sites for people who are looking for the celebration of all things fem.
If I offended the creators of the site or the readers by stating my opinion, I apologize for that. I'm just telling you what I perceived and again my perception could be completely off.
For me it was just personal growth. It started with a guy I took accelerated classes with in middle school. He was very fem, flamboyant, loud & just out there when I was filled with doubt & self-hatred. One day we were on the floor acting out the roles of Julius Caesar & he kept looking at my crotch and smiling. I yelled out "what the fuck are you looking at dude?" Got in trouble behind it, blamed him in my head. But it bothered me that he seemed so free with himself and who he was. All I knew of gay at that point was guys who were sissies or dressed up like women & I didn't understand that a man could have the feelings I had towards men & not turn into that somehow. I just avoided him. Fast forward to college & we had a class together. Guys were subtly flirting with me but I was so fucked up in the head you would have had to put it out there plainly for me to react unless you were on my radar. So guys are getting drunk asking me to go running or workout with me, or study together and getting too touchy feely, saying more than they meant to & I'm just acting oblivious to it & not paying attention to the fact that they go out in rainstorms and mud wrestle (hundreds at a time) looking like some kind of mass orgy and exploring their sexuality in the most no homo ways possible.
But this dude was still himself, always fem, always smiling and he was nice to me even though I'd been cruel to him. The only thing I can say is I saw his humanity & felt ashamed that I disliked somebody for being who they are. I apologized for how I treated him & he asked me what my problem had been and why I was so nasty to him. I told him flat out it was because I was ashamed of the part of me that I knew we shared in common, our sexuality. We talked through it and actually became really good friends. We've fallen out sometimes over the years but he's a great guy & I appreciate having him in my life. I was just immature & insecure about who I was when I was younger. I can't speak for issues anyone else may have with the whole masc/fem thing. Growing up & living in the south I just wasn't exposed to that much outside of what I read or saw in the media. Every real life voice I heard though told me it was wrong & I just didn't want to be associated with that at all.
“the problems people here tend to have with femme gay black men is not that they are necessarily femme, it is the negative behaviors that seems to go along with femme gay men(a broad generalization of course) and the official ‘viewpoint’ of black gay men, the narrative of black gay men, being determined by femme black gay men.”
Ocky, you appeared to strongly co-sign that sentence especially the last part. Since you have such a big problem with femme gay black men determining the official viewpoint (narrative) of black gay men, you should put your own “narrative” (whatever it is) out there. But in order to do that, effectively, you have to “come out”.
I understand that you are about 40 years old and if you haven’t come out by 40, you probably never will. I just don’t think you can change this so-called narrative you’re so dissatisfied with without coming out and putting your own “truth” out there.
There are black gay men of all kinds on You Tube, for example, telling their stories/truths (like Walter Hampton, a masculine “out” black gay man). Ocky, you could be one of them but you choose not to be. My guess is that if you become frustrated enough with the status quo regarding the narrative for black gay men, as you see it, you’ll make a move.
PS: Femme or “clockable” gay black men, like the black gay man who was viciously slurred and had a gun pointed at him in the video, are the VICTIMS of homophobic abuse all the time in black or predominately black hellholes. What we all saw in the video is the daily reality for femme gay black gay men. Let’s keep that front and center in this conversation.
What the hell are you talking about? Lol Ocky is not on the DL/In the closet. What made you think that from his statement?
Plain and simple, feminine gay men have set the tone for the "face of being gay". And with that has fed homophobia/biphobia, internal homophobia/biphobia and blatant ignorance to human sexuality, in general. That is a BIG problem from the roots.
I don't comprehend the angle of Ocky you stated and where that is coming from.
Obviously "fem" and "masc" dudes both catch different grief for different reasons, especially among black folk. It's not anti-fem prejudice to point out that black masc viewpoints are sublimated by mainstream straight and gay media. Nor is it wrong to point out masc dudes catch special kinds of brief because we don't "scan" as "stereotypical gay" which puts some straight males in a panic; if they can't "sort us out" from the general "gay population" it threatens their fragile masculinity to think we might walk among them, in work, gyms, military, etc. (someone should do a gay horror parody and call it "The Unclockable").
This early episode of "All In The Family" addressed the whole fem/masc gay thing decades before it was even on most folk's radar, let alone general LGBT issues. Archie is doubly shocked to find out his ex-NFL, sports loving bar buddy is gay as opposed to his son in laws effeminate and foppish friend who is actually straight. His reaction at the bar (18:00 into episode) is something I can relate to, as most black folk in my life have the same reaction to me and other masc gay/bi bros
Walter Hampton is an example of a 'masculine identifying' black gay man who has the same negative qualities that are associated with the femme gays- he is hardly someone to look up to-he is very 'messy', judgemental, 'outing' people, spreading gossip, etc. When masc gay men come out they often get hell from the femme gays(who is he fooling, he is a acting, he ain't masc, he hates himself, he is in denial, etc. etc. etc.) and also exposes himself to the same hate that comes from straight anti-gay bigots.
I also think that 'White America' prefers 'femme' black gay men because they are seen as less threatening-another hurdle for a black masc guy to deal with. It is difficult to make that choice to deal with all of that-a choice that 'clockable' gay men do not have to make-the choice is made for them and they are 'known' whether they want to be or not. Would the 'clockable' femme gay men hide if they could? It is not really fair for femme gay men to criticize gay masc men who are not clockable for not getting the same amount of outright discrimination if the femme gays would choose the same thing -if they could.
I think this site is overall much more 'pro this' than 'anti that' also. It is also telling that some of the worst anti-femme actions and behavior come from femme gays themselves-particularly the 'extra' ones who are particularly adept at tearing each other(and anyone else) apart-no holds barred, anything goes.
I just don't think that this site is anti-femme. Yes sometimes things are said(nobody or no thing is perfect) but the tone and focus is not on being 'anti-femme' and there are more attacks on 'hypermasculinity' and how it destructive than any occasional 'backhand' comment someone might make 'such as doing the gay voice' or writing in the 'gay way'(GURRRL, Ima gonna drag you to the filth, HUNTY)-which again is not just about being 'femme' as these comments are usually about the 'extra' femme gays-not femme gays in general. JMO.
*I commented on this because the first part of what you posted was something I wrote. Also I would add that the 'narrative' is being mostly written not just by femme black gay men, but 'extra' femme black gay men. The same is true (but to a lesser extent) with the white gay narrative, which is pretty much the line of the Gay Elite and their agenda(which is all powerful and why there is not a 'white' version of Cypher Avenue IMO-this white gay elite has enough power to crush any gay media presence that is 'outside' of the 'official white LGBTqueer agenda').
The black gay community does not have the cohesion, strength, leadership, history, resources, etc. (IMO)to accomplish this as it is less established, has less funding, has fewer powerful allies, and is generally 'not as far along' as it's white counterpart, for the usual reasons( part of which is white domination of wealth and institutions such as the media, and partly(JMO) because of a stronger backlash among straight blacks/hypermasculinity being more prevalent).
And I am somewhat of an outsider in this so I can only go by what I have been able to gather, and I certainly could be off on some of this I readily admit.
Yeah, I've seen Hampton. Like Kanye West, he is a prime example of someone who needs access to behavioral health therapy not social media. Writer Rafi D'Angelo is an example of an intelligent fem brother I dig. His "femness" is just his natural personality and he definitely doesn't engage in the "gay sambo" stuff that a previous CA thread cited.
And I agree that CA isn't anti-that, just pro-this. Both masc and fem dudes have outliers who have psychological needs that need to be addressed, whether it's the snap-queen on the fem side, or the hyper-cisgender-presenting butch masc guys whose concept of masculinity is so easily fractured like some straight guys.
Instead of no fats/no fems, my personal motto would be no drama/no bullshit/no morons (fem or masc)
I should have said 'extra' femme gays or 'extra' gays…because I do believe much of the issue is not just about femme vs masc, but 'extra' vs 'not extra'. Being 'extra', the extra femme gays are going to make sure they are heard loud and clear and will dominate the discourse and the reaction to masc gays-and the narrative of black gays.
Look at the video of Jacob Kohinoor and friends discussing masculinity-the blonde dude who seemed the most 'extra' and had the most attitude dominated that discussion and you could tell he dominated that group. There are guys on here( at least a few) who are masc and who have said they could be ok with femme gays, even as partners, but I have yet to see one say the same thing about an 'extra' femme gay ….and I don't recall anyone looking for a 'hypermasculine asshole' type who would have a tendency to beat their ass daily either, for that matter.
In short, I think this site is misunderstood. The premise of the site, the reason for the site existing, is misunderstood. It is not an 'anti' space, it is an alternative space that was mainly created by the founders to express their own selves and viewpoints that they did not see being expressed anywhere else. JMHO.
Well, anything's possible with the Internet. Give it enough time and you could find that person. Lol
One of the first gay guys I met was in 1986. The guy was a very handsome funny white guy who had just moved from San Francisco. He got off by PAYING black men to literally beat the shit out of him. I mean punch, kick, etc.-give him a real beating. And he paid for it. SMH. He had just moved and 'gave up' this particular behavior because he nearly got killed.
"…which puts some straight males in a panic; if they can't "sort us out" from the general "gay population" it threatens their fragile masculinity to think we might walk among them, in work, gyms, military, etc."
Dude you ain't NEVA lied. This is SO baffling to me. You'de think they'de WANT to chill with someone who's damn near exactly the same as them personality-wise, but no. It disturbs them. I know this first hand.
"Walter Hampton is an example of a 'masculine identifying' black gay man who has the same negative qualities that are associated with the femme gays- he is hardly someone to look up to-he is very 'messy', judgemental, 'outing' people, spreading gossip, etc. "
Thank you. Not to get on a WH discussion, but I don't find him to be masculine at all and I never have. Only if we were at the gym and he was dead in the middle of lifting and didn't open his mouth to speak, at he was at somewhat of a distance, and the gym was crowded so I couldn't get a really good look at him, and since I don't find him attractive I really wouldn't pay that much attention so he would just fly under my radar. His "messiness" however, I feel is due to other issues both internal and environmental that he may have going on his his life.
"I think this site is overall much more 'pro this' than 'anti that' also. It is also telling that some of the worst anti-femme actions and behavior come from femme gays themselves-particularly the 'extra' ones who are particularly adept at tearing each other(and anyone else) apart-no holds barred, anything goes."
I agree wholeheartedly, but at the same time one can NEVER fully comprehend the extent of someone else's struggle unless they spend a significant time in said person's "shoes". I'm not fan of messy fem behavior but, I can only speculate as to what really causes it. So en lieu of judging and showing distaste, I just stay away from them (those that are outwardly messy) when possible.
Playing dime store shrink, I think part of it is, unlike Masc guys, they can't hide in plain sight, so maybe you learn to be quick with the quip so as to cut people down before you get cut; or, if you're cast as the devils spawn, maybe you just embrace it and flame on?
That…is so…
He must have had a lot of money because I'm sure he didn't have a shortage of takers!
:flav:
The greatest unfortunate thing in all of this is the “masculine” gay men putting themselves on a pedestal as if the fem gay man is responsible for the gun being pulled on him. If it wasn’t for HIM… WE would not exist outside of our deep, dark closets of shame and insecurity. Collectively, as a black gay community, out gay men have the greatest self esteem and confidence. They are not BELOW the “masculine” descriptive they are ABOVE it as demonstrated in this video. They are the BRAVE ones not the cowards who hide behind the belief that if you are masculine you are safe. Trust me, that crippled man would have pulled the same gun on a masculine gay man once he found out he was gay but what’s MORE important is he would have NEVER pulled it on a white gay man. We have NO regard or respect for each other’s lives as black men. You have a man here who is handicapped hating on an out gay man. What symbolism. It is no wonder that SO many of us in the black gay male community are alone, we collectively hate ourselves so got damn much. Live and let live and stop chasing what eludes you. The hunt for a disturbed self-hating DL masculine thug speaks volumes for deeply challenged self-value. Why not just date the guys who beat the shit out of you in grade school? Perhaps that’s the sum of our value and that’s really what we are looking for anyway. Someone to continue to make us feel worthless. Wake the fuck up black brothers.
To be clear, just because a gay man is masculine does not mean he is on the DL/Closeted. There are gay men who are on the DL/closetd men, including feminine gay men who are actors giving women the "pseudo" masculine man to suppress/hide their gayness. You can be masculine and Out with your sexuality, gay or bisexual.
You cannot concur that in order to be a gay man, you have to be feminine or else, you are closeted/on the DL. That is an assbackwards perception on being a gay man. And with that perception is the problem. The problem that gives the heteronormative world the notion that "that is what being gay is". And with that, misconceptions and stereotypes taint being gay or bisexual and gives fuel to unneccesary homophobia.
I cannot stress it enough. Feminine gay men breathe the stereotyping of how a lot of people think of gay men, especially the ones who mimic the female existence. And that is a concurrent problem that does not help us showcase us as men amongst the other type of man that is only looked at as being "what a man is" amongst the masses.
Ijs!
Tryna find out who you talking about, Jewld.
You know, there are masculine, out, gay men in the world. Are there closeted, gay black men? Sure. And they are not DL either. You are generalizing all gay masculine gay men. I thought we were trying to diffuse these ideas on both sides? Fem gay men usually can't 'hide' their "feminine" qualities from others. Masculine men can 'pass' for straight. Maybe this is viewed as a benefit. Maybe not. But if that gay man is really masculine and doesn't fit into the fem or 'queer' lane, he gets talked about and described as not "living in his truth." Why can't we accept that gay men are not all alike? It's not masculine gay men's fault that 'society' views feminine gay men negatively. However, we can speak up for those gay men. On the flip side, masculine gay men, even if they are not DL, get called DL because that same society doesn't understand that gay men can be masculine and also have zero interest in females.
While I agree that many black people, gay, straight, trans, etc, don't value or respect each other enough to not kill each other is shameful. However, you out here calling this man 'crippled' and 'handicapped' which he probably takes offense to. Help yourself help your cause.
You are referencing grade school. Well let me tell you, about 90% of the dudes in my high school who rattled out the terms 'f@g' and sugar booty… I have the receipts on their same sex escapades as I found out about them years later from different sources. If some dude in high school had some sexual repression and years later came to terms with it, how can you still pass judgement on someone who wasn't even a fully mature adult when it comes to matters of sexual identity? Sure, they could be bi, gay, DL or whatever now. But we can't be holding on to the same messed up stuff that happened before we had a high school diploma. You have to let some stuff go and move on.
There's nothing wrong with wanting to date a masculine dude. Most here want masculine contemporaries but I don't think we are all looking for the 'thug'. Most off the dudes here want a regular, average Joe type of dude, not a roughneck.
100dap
and I would add many of them (feminine dudes) prop and put themselves up on a pedestal as the real true representation of what a real Gay is. If you don't fit that narrow standard, then some how you are not brave, DL or hiding. Fuck that.
:mjlol:
Thank you. I fuking hate this generalization. I don't want a fem dude so therefore I must want a thug or a roughneck?
This misguided logic is usually on display when fem film makers; many times if or when they include a "non-fem", the non-fem is the aggressor, victimizer, masculine, DL, thug rough neck type. In there minds this is what non-fem means or represents.
Yall remember a few years ago when that blk, female blogger got her blog dome rocked after an article about how every woman needed 'a gay'?! She made it seem as if 'gays' were audible, purse puppies. N guess who it was taking her to task, fem guys! The same guys who clearly gave her the notion that 'this is what gay men will be to str8 women', were suddenly upset by seeing that they weren't 'one of the girls, afterall', in print.
Because this is what 'ultimate masc' represents for these fem dudes who want to be treated like their home girls.
:ufdup::ohhh:
This knocked me back. I see @Ockydub already hit you back on this, but I have to say that since I have been following the site I've been struck by the depth of discussion around issues of the diversity of the community and frank discussions of our attitudes – nothing like clickbait at all. And that is a reason I keep coming back.
About that apology video
An interesting list which is straight out of the playbook of crisis management, often consulted by politicians who get caught doing whatever, with some variations. The list of intoxicants is pretty staggering and I suppose the I know the guy point is a variation of some of my best friends are. As for the video itself > was he in a car? on his way to turn himself in?