I recently watched two YouTube videos made by two different personalities in the black gay community. What Happened To All The Masculine Black Gay Men, featured commentary from Walter Lee Hampton and the other, Are Masculine Gay Men Becoming Extinct featured commentary from transgendered Ms. Chanel. Both used “real life” situations or observations to pose their questions in the videos.
I found it interesting that basically the same questions were coming from two different and almost opposite ends of the gay spectrums. Mr. Hampton is from a more masculine perspective and Ms. Chanel from a more feminine perspective. Both brought into question what seems like a lack, shortage, or disappearance of masculine black gay men.
From Mr. Hampton’s experience he noticed that the gay men in the clubs are a lot more effeminate than 20 years ago. They seemed more embracing and self-identifying with all things fem. While Ms. Chanel talks about her observation while looking at Reality TV; she states that the women in these shows use effeminate black gay men (who dress in high heels and carry hand bags) as their personal fashion accessories. She implies that these portrayals of effeminate men in the media reinforces that to be gay is to be fem. Honest commentary and questions by both especially from Ms. Chanel.
If there is a shortage or lack of masculine black gay men, is that a positive or negative thing? I am all for allowing people to be who they are but in our overall society are men in general becoming softer or more feminized?
I recently mentioned to a coworker (let’s call him Fred) that I went fishing in Florida and he called me a “rugged outdoorsman”. Scratching my head thinking to myself “men and women go fishing” but this comment coming from Fred made sense. Keep in mind I am not aware of Fred’s sexual orientation (don’t know, don’t care); however he is a city born and raised metro sexual who wears high-water skinny leg pants, tight polo shirts with bow ties and dress shoes with no socks. This attire alone doesn’t make one masculine or feminine but in this case, Fred in my opinion is “soft”. Of course there is nothing wrong with being soft and Fred is a nice guy but his disposition and demeanor is what it is.
Maybe the metro sexual feminization and softening of men is why many believe that there is masculine privilege within the gay community. I recently presented this as a Question Of The Week and many felt that when it comes to dating and sex, masculinity is highly sought after. Could it be because masculinity is low in abundance? I have always felt in the gay community effeminate men far outnumber masculine men. However if the scales of balance are beginning to weigh even more heavily towards the “effeminate” side, I do feel this will have a negative impact and weaken homosexual diversity. If effeminate gay men have more representation through numbers this can equal more outlets created by and catering to their interests; in turn masculine gay men could have even fewer outlets that cater to their needs and interests, thus their voices being marginalized.
What’s your opinion? Are gay men becoming more effeminate? Is it reaching epidemic levels in younger and younger black gay men? Why does it seem like there is a strong self-identifying aversion to masculinity but strong self-identifying attraction to femininity in black gay men? Does it have to do with over 70% of children being raised in single families without fathers or male figures in the homes? Again what do you think?
You can view the videos below that were used as reference from Mr. Hampton and Ms. Chanel. Please try to refrain from insults or nasty comments about the authors of the videos. Let’s be respectful and add to the discussion.
OckyDub
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Are we considering Walter, the guy that made his name by toplessly outting people online masculine now? OK. I don’t think there’s any more or less masculine men I just think they dony like to be seen. I mean even the creators of this site don’t want to be seen. Now multiply that by all of them.
Don’t want to be seen? We still go to gay clubs and house parties. While there we are not wearing bags over our heads.
……….OK you got me on that point. But I know so many masculine acting men who just don’t like to do “gay stuff” because there’s no masculine gay men out. See the irony in that?
Naw I am not understanding your point but its all good.
The point I’m trying to make is that there are tons of masculine men out there. But from my experience they don’t like to go out and be seen because they don’t think a lot of masculine men will be out. Therefore they stay home. If most masculine men do this then it is a self fulfilling prophecy that there are no masculine men out there. Nick posted about not going to pride events because there are no masculine men there…am I making sense? And as far as TV you don’t see masculine gay men on reality TV because by band large they don’t want to be seen in that light. I received a casting call looking specifically for masculine men in relationships. I passed it along to my masculine friends…you would have thought I sent them death threats.
Whoa…I said I don’t go to pride events because of the debauchery and sex obsession with these events. Masculine men can be seen engaging in that foolery as well.
I understand why you don’t attend these types of events @nick. I get it completely. These events cater primarily to more feminine men with a sprinkling of masculine men who I think are there to get as much arse as they can. But if feel like these events get so much publicity in the community which attracts so many more feminine men who want to see and be seen. What types of events are there similar to this that cater to more masculine men? I haven’t heard of anything and there is the problem.
Great point! Being the visionaries that we are we hope to have a meet up event for Cypher Ave followers in the coming future.
@ocky n @nick – i hope this is gonna be a destination experience, becus if i get there n im not interested in a single mofo there, i hope i can at least drink my drink at the same time
Until I actually met my first naturally masculine gay man, when I was younger, I thought all gay men were feminine, and Honestly I think that most people see being gay as being feminine. As you kind of mentioned above, there are not enough examples of masculine gay men for younger gay guys to look up to. So as they are accepting who they are they feel the need to gravitate towards being feminine.
Another thing that I have noticed is that some naturally masculine gay mean begin to act feminine because they think it is the popular thing to do amongst gays,they think it is funny, or they pick just pick up the lingo and the mannerisms because they hang around a lot of feminine gays.
Out of fear of not being accepted, some people would much rather be apart of the majority, instead of just embracing who they are as an individual.
Interesting feed back. I’m taking from your statement that you feel most black gay men or the ones you have encountered were more effeminate acting.
@ocky Yeah especially my experience here in ATL, but I just don’t think all of them started off that way. Lol…. And I say this because around me or in our initial interaction, they would act masculine, I mean give an oscar worthy performance. later on the fem comes out, or i would go just so happen to go some non-gay place and see them with thier feminine friends and this 6’2 muscle bound dude is now a fem version of the guy I initially met.
Also theses dudes were usually my age or younger, I am still in my 20’s but a large majority of the real naturally masculine guys I have met and been attracted to have been older than me, in their 30’s
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As a kid (like around the “Raymond Charles” stage of my life lol) I also thought that all gays were feminine; gays wore pink and were basically women. That stereotype did some harm.
That feminine image made it so hard for me to come out to myself: I’ve always been masculine, just sortof naturally, so it took a while for me to realize I was gay, since I didn’t wear pink all the time and act like a lady.
The feelings I had for guys just made me really lonely: deep feelings (romantic, I realize now) for dudes weren’t reciprocated, but I also didn’t think I could be gay, since “gays are feminine.”
It was forgetting stereotypes and just being honest with myself about my romantic/sexual feelings that made be realize I like dudes.
But man, as a kid, it would have been SO much easier and healthier to understand that I can be masculine AND gay. Having romantic feelings for dudes but being masculine was lonely and confusing.
@kasule Many men including myself had very similar experiences. Thanks for sharing this.
My two cents: It has nothing to do with the media or people “hiding”. I’m starting to believe that masculine gay men are just not as plentiful as we really think. Even the ones that are Discreet or Down Low. Think about it. Masculine men are rarely even seen online on dating sites and apps where anonymity is possible. If they were plentiful yet hiding, we would at least see them all there like bugs under a rock.
Many of the few masculine men that do exist come out as Gay and get assimilated into the Borg, aka they conform into more effeminate traits/slang/mannerisms because they think that’s what’s required to be gay. I’ve even been told MANY times by fems that I need to “just be myself” and to “stop acting straight” just because I wasn’t effeminate.
Embracing femininity is totally fine if you’re gay and it makes you comfortable, but it still means we’re subtracting one less masculine man from our gay census.
So you’re saying masculine men want to be feminine to fit in an fem men are totally embraced. If I was at my computer idgive you a serious willy wonka meme.
Right…because NO ONE ever adopts slang/mannerisms of a group of friends that they start hanging out with…yeah that NEVER happens…
I totally agree. when the few guys that goes to my neighborhood church go out and invite me. When I turn them down. They are like ” you need to live your life for you and stop being a coward” how am I being a coward if I don’t want to go to a ball, club and etc…I am inbetween but I have my time and place. Which is not in public. When they see me in public and they yell and scream….and holler out my name. I just ignore them. lol then I get cuss out how I wonna be D.L in public. Gays need to understand we don’t live the same way. I am not one of the girls, the kids, a queen, a fish like seriously…why can’t i b just me and not Ms.Thing. And I hate when they talk they believe you’re apart of their sorority and they can call you BITCH!!!
@tazio-forrest wow…very insightful feedback. You betta speak that shyt.
Fo real man. It’s just tiring. It’s getting real old.
What up guys, I’m a year late to the party. I’m “white” according to the government. But whit the way a polar bear is. My surface may appear white but under all that white is jet black skin. Basically if you enjoy good music you’re black, because all the good music originated with black artists, ignoring classical. Black culture is superior in so many ways. Anyway manly homos…that’s where it’s at. I agree with a lot of you that because the gay culture is not speaking to us, we don’t have places to gather. I’m a filmmaker and musical artist among other things, an athlete, a comedian. I see it as my duty to all the bro homos out there to redeem the manly homo in the international imagination by finally portraying him.
Media is the constant ingredient in every culture. Heavily-American media. Back in film school a casting director told us they’d witnessed many brute gents trying out for parts of dudes that are homo and the common judgement of the casting directors was that the men were “too manly”. I want to firebomb the Hollywood sign, but only if they know this is why. Shackles on my soul every day that every dude like me has to be perceived as some anomaly for speaking with use of his balls when this is the way shit used to be. I can’t imagine why so few media wielders released a portrayal of manly homos. Symbolic annihilation describes the absence of representation, or underrepresentation, of some group of people in the media. Looks like I have to be the first one to make a movie that’s blazingly badass whose core beats with men in love? God knows we’ve seen enough movies with hetero shits getting slobbery. Overpopulating the place and shit. When they hate me in the South one day because I turned the tides and made it not just accepted, but cool for Jeremiah to take Jerome to the watering hole for a hot dip, well. I’ll make money from the hate by selling pictures of myself to the shooting ranges.
When you see a dude you are into, ask him out. For me, I’m only attracted to guys who could only be known to be gay if asked. Getting shot down a million times is better than walking away wondering. One time it worked for me and I might still be with the guy if he hadn’t lied to me about his age, real awesome dude. He didn’t enjoy getting topped though so it was doomed anyway haha.
When you think there are no manly gay dudes out there think of Alexander the Great, Frank Ocean, Jason Collins, Michael Sam, Michelangelo, Wentworth…
My personal opinion is that most masculine men prefer feminine, or at least, “softer” men. I’m a masculine guy and one of my coworkers is definitely more feminine than myself and I don’t stand a chance with most of the masculine guys that come into contact with us. I don’t know if other masculine guys have experienced that but I guess they know from the word go that he is down for whatever. If I am masculine and the other guy is masculine and my coworker/friend is feminine, it’s like the two masculine discreet guys are invisible to each other and I mean that literally. You go for what you know is available. So in a natural setting(anywhere not obviously a gay spot) how would you know that a masculine guy is gay unless he announces it with a name tag? Maybe there are more out there.
I think individuals prefer what they prefer. I am masculine and have dated other masculine men. That is what I am attracted to. However there are many masculine men who can go with either masc or fem…they don’t care.
I agree that people prefer who they prefer but the most important point, and I can’t stress this enough, two discreet masculine guys can pass each other in any environment(work, school, restaurant etc) and not know that they just passed a gay masculine dude. I personally just assume he’s straight. I’m from a medium sized city and I’m sure it doesn’t have the “scene” like Atlanta so there aren’t many gay men period so if I’m masculine and attracted to masculine but don’t know who is “family” as they say, I miss out. I might just make moves on the guy who is more effeminate because I KNOW he’s gay. Could be plenty of masculine dudes out there just like that. More than we know but we can’t cruise each other out and we’re not flashing neon signs on our foreheads so maybe we’re just passing each other thinking the other is straight? Everyone can’t meet at a house party filled with obviously available people. I think about that all the time. The experience is so different I feel depending on the size of the city and the SCENE.
Another point @ocky and @nick and I don’t mean to put words in your collective mouths but could the frustration and consternation at the “perceived” lack of masculine gay men lead to the same bitterness toward more effeminate gay men by masculine gay men that “angry” black women have towards gay men in general? You know the whole all of the good men are either married or gay thing. Maybe we’re having a pity party in the same light. Just a thought.
I think I understand where @Hannibal is goin. For instance, the only 2 masc gay friends I had moved to atl from ny last year, and they were my only link to gay functions. Ive only been to clubs a few times w them, but i randomly decided to go to a gay event a couple weeks ago. And I was there for all of 20 minutes. I scanned the room, didnt see any masc, or even appealing, guys, at least by my standards, and threw in the towel. On top of that, it was like everyone knew each other and I was some random on the scene.
I say all of that to say, I have a hard time believing that were not out here. As Ive said before, I think the real problem is our exposure to each other, or lack thereof. If there were an easier way for us to connect, I feel like we wouldnt seem so invisible. I live in a straight bubble. All of my friends are straight; I wouldnt know the first place to go to find other masculine black gay men. Im confident we’re out here, but if we’re all spread out across the country flying solo, sitting on our computers, we’re gonna seem extinct.
@sb3000 Interesting observation and have done the exact same thing when I have went to gay clubs. The visionaries over here at Cypher Ave have floated the idea of a Cypher Ave Meet Up but we don’t know if it would be successful.
I could see that goin alot of ways, lol. On one hand, I think, at least for yall down there in atl, the sheer number of black gay men has to have a few masc dudes goin against the grain. However…….w all of the high heel wearing dudes down there, ionkno! lol
But for real for real, it doesnt hurt to try. Like I said, sitting behind our laptops lamenting def aint gonna change anything any faster…
That’s what I’ve been trying to say. All the masculine men I know who complain about there not being masculine gay men out…sit at home. It’s proliferating the problem.
I agree with Hannibal…Most masc men don’t want to be noticed or seen for many reasons and that should be okay. Let’s all be honest here, NOBODY likes REJECTION or made to feel uncomfortable when it comes to the affairs of the heart, whether or not you’re-hetero/straight/Bi-Gay!
My feeling and theory on this particular topic is, until the world we all live in makes it okay or alright including LGBTQ community are all embracing to the point that being a homosexual or gay who happens to be masculine NATURALLY(NOT THE OSCAR NOMINEE-LOL) is applauded and celebrated, you’re NEVER gonna see a whole bevy of masc/straight-acting or whatever you call it MEN!
And by the world, I mean when “mankind” learn to stop self-hating and shaming itself, then and only then will things get better!
Nah fellas, I find it VERY HARD to believe that the ONLY out gay black men are effeminate because masculine men are supposedly hiding and/or closeted. @sb3000 your experience is too common for it to be the reason.
I think it shows that the majority of black gay men are actually effeminate, inbetween or the guys who used to be naturally masculine before they adopted the fem gay slang and mannerisms from their friends.
One of my UK friends visited the country last year and went to a meetup of masculine black men from a private “masc black gay” facebook group in NYC. He told me 80% of the dudes were soft/inbetween but identified as masculine. We in an age where so many gay men are so soft that dudes with a few muscles, star tattoos & a fitted cap are considered masculine! I see through the Matrix!
Being even more honest, I suspect a good amount of our Discreet City/Cypher Ave readership was/is fem, soft or inbetween. Either way I’m thankful for EVERYONE that supports the site but I think @Ocky may be on to an unspoken reality with this essay. Masc dudes are very rare.
This is prob why so many ppl want to see us, we’re like rare panda bears. Not many masc dudes in life or media at all. We got so-called “masculine” black gay video bloggers making videos wearing colored contacts and/or doing videos while in drag. The game is all fucked up, son!
You made an interesting point. I saw a suggested group called the masculine society that apparently a lot of my friends joined. They ain’t nobody’s masculine lol. I know they know it too, but it’s like an open NBA party, everybody is going to try and score the prize. I can’t speak for all of your readership but I know I consider myself inbetween. I don’t think too many fems/inbetweens would be active on the site because it sort of goes against what a lot of them stand for I think. I just call it reading a different point of view.
I also don’t think the masculine men are hiding per se(except when it comes to being on tv). I think it’s moreso that many of the ones I know are just private people into doing homebody stuff. That or they just don’t relate to “the gay lifestyle” and would prefer to stay home.
I don’t think they’re an endangered species. I think they just know that the world around them is trying to compare and contrast them to the other men who look the part, but don’t act the part. And a real masculine man can tell the difference. I believe that much. They’re out there probably looking at all this other stuff and thinking “Hmm, better not get caught up in this” and just stay invisible. I think it’s a protection thing for themselves to know just how much, how long and how many people see them around to not be molded in with this “great populous”…
@nick Yo, I started to say exactly what u said but I was teetering on writing an essay, lol. So many men think theyre masculine!!! Its like, if ur not flaming, ur masc, in their eyes.
I just wonder if there really arent as many of us out here as I’d like to think. Lets hope thats not the case.
But just for those who dont know..naturally masculine men are the dudes from work/school/next door, who happen to be straight. The only difference between these guys and myself is that I like dudes! Just sayin…
You just nailed whats so interesting to me about the whole gay/straight/masculine/feminine thing.
My brother is straight, but not masculine. He’s a computer geek who is really soft, shy, and just all-around wimpy. My dad is also a bit effeminate (!).
I’m by far the most masculine, alpha-male dude in my family – and obviously I’m the gay one.
There are SO many non-masculine straight guys out there, but the straight world doesn’t care because femininity is irrelevant to a straight man: if you’re straight male, then you’re a man. Period.
But since gays have this feminine stereotype, a general fascination exists in terms of which gays are “masculine/discreet” because we’re assumed to be “feminine/flaming.” The straight world has no such witch hunt: nobody singles out a non-masculine straight guy for attention. Straight dudes are always “men.”
It’s like, if we threw away the assumption that “straight=masculine” and “gay=feminine,” our society could be a lot more honest with itself – and have fewer fake surprises when Rock Hudson or Jason Collins turns out to be gay. And people would begin to notice that my brother is so soft…hahaha. Until then, he’s more “manly” than I am!
I think masculinity matters regardless of sexuality. Straight women see the femininity in straight men and they make a decision if they are attracted to that.
I doubt your brother/father has a lisp or rocks a purse or talks in gay slang (which is basically female slang: Girl, Queen, Snapping fingers and their wrists, etc) so you can’t compare a straight man who’s meek with an effeminate gay dude. Many effeminate gay men act like teenage black girls, there’s no comparison. If your brother and father actually have mannerisms of your mother, then I will concede to your point.
What I’m trying to get at is: the wide assumptions that “straight=manly” and “gay=feminine” can create the most bizarre, confusing, and contradictory expectations of straight AND gay people.
For example, I frequently get people telling me I come across as “straight,” when I’m just being myself. Or girls assume I’m straight, then…situations sometimes get awkward. I’m just more masculine; that’s all.
To address your point: sometimes, neither “meek” nor “teenage girl” behavior is considered truly masculine – when defining “masculine” as “alpha-male behavior.” If you’re defining “masculine” strictly as “not acting like a woman,” then yeah, you’re right: a dude can be “meek” and “masculine,” but not “act like a woman” and “masculine.”
For example, people sometimes comment that my father is effeminate. He doesn’t have a purse or rock a lisp (the thought did make me laugh, tho!), but he does have a limp wrist sometimes (lol!). I think people say he’s effeminate because they’re defining “masculine” as “alpha-male,” which he is not. But if they define “masculine” as “not acting like a woman,” then yeah, he’s masculine (I don’t think women in real life generally have limp wrists, for instance).
Lol at the last paragraph. Yup. MASCULINE men are very rare. I have met a few guys online who I guess found me “shady” caused I’m very blunt because I told them they are not masculine. I even had one left me at the movies because I told him to chill and stop pretending cause he only masculine on the inside.
Damn bro, lol. Yeah I don’t mind a softer, inbetween dude at all. Just don’t lie to me and say you’re masculine. Its unattractive. It shouldn’t matter, but its a part of the gay community that’s not going away anytime soon.
You’re right it’s not gonna go away for maybe decades because of the ignorance in the community. Another thing is that they believe inbetween guys are no different from feminine guys, we’re just “internal homophobes” against femininity. Which ain’t true. It’s just who we are. We’re like sensor lights we just know when to turn on and off. There is also a difference between Feminine and Flamboyant-that’s a different topic. #ijs
i feel like media has contributed a lot to this lack of visual representation of masc black gay men.i think masc men DO exist. i think that they tend to stick together because they do not want to be affiliated with effeminate black man and the dreaded stereotype. the truth of the matter is effeminate men have a place in society .for every effeminate gay man there is a group of women willing to accept him as their personal accessory whereas gay black masc men don’t see themselves represented so they go around thinking that other masc men simply don’t exist (that was the case for me until i found this sight existed!)
You make a good point that masculine gay black men don’t see themselves in gay culture, black media, or wider society so we tend to think of them as unicorns. When I was teenager I thought all gay men were feminine. The boys that were out when I was growing up (in 1990s which wasn’t that long ago were either white feminine or both). When I reached my 20s and was in the armed forces I met quite a few masculine gay black men. It was such a relief to find people I could identify with. It six being a minority in a minority in a minority.
i can’t speak for previous generations,however my generations connotations of masc has completely differed from previous gens.the word that would be more appropriate to describe so called masc men of my generation(80’s & 90’s babies) is “soft”.
because there isn’t a large community persay of masc men,most guys who consider themselves masc find themselves having limited options so either they
exclusively go out for men who considers themselves “straight”.sure the “relationship” dynamic will be a mess(the whole straight guy not knowing what he wants or what he wants)but that person who is “straight” has to play into the straight world’s perception of masculinity,which would be exactly what a gay black “masc” guy would be looking for.
suppression of sexuality:if you are masc & thats your preference but you realize that the idea of another masc man might be a myth an option he would have is to “convert” himself to be heterosexual.”i don’t like queens! why would i be with a guy who imitates a women when i could just BE with a woman?”
or
accept that masc men are like mystical unicorns & deciede that in order to find a partner you would have to lower your standards and come around to the idea of being with a feminine guy.as a result you start to hang around fems more & in extreme cases you hang around fems way too long eventually you adapt there mannerism
this wouldn’t be the case for all.i feel like those would be some of the only choice…
I feel like in a sense this is the same as females continuously asking “Where all the GOOD men at”.. lol
I think individuals prefer what they prefer. I am masculine and have dated other masculine men. That is what I am attracted to. However there are many masculine men who can go with either masc or fem…they don’t care.
Idk about this one fellas… I honestly think that we’re being a bit unfair when we think/talk about masc brothers who may be “hiding” in some aspect. Gay masc dudes are out there, but I think we act like they don’t exist just because they have not experienced the same “I don’t give a fuck” liberation like some of us masc brothers who are more or less on the front lines.
It’s a reality, a lot of masc dudes are still stuck in limbo. Consequently, they don’t come out, they repress, or go into a status of ultimate discreetness and go undetected by some of the most up-to-date gaydars. Think about it… masc gay dudes are loners in a sense and/or very selective with the company they keep (look at your own life).
But, lets continue to be honest… None of us are the omnipresent beings we think we are – we don’t roll in all the same circles or hit all the same stores or gyms as every masc gay dude. There’s no inkwell of masc gay dudes, so we might as well stop looking for it (hell, CA is the closet thing we got to the inkwell, so start mingling! lol).
If we wanna continue working in this societal binary system, then what’s obvious is that there may be more feminine energy in the universe than male energy… Women naturally outnumber men, so is it a far fetched idea that feminine dudes naturally outnumber masculine dudes?!
Jonah Darnell – you made some excellent points. Thank you for saying essentially what I was thinking.
Didn’t he? That dude be on point.
Preach Jonah!! Good points man.
I saw Walter Hampton’s YouTube video and I think there is more than one thing at work here. 1: American society as whole has become much more feminized. Think about when was the last time you saw a positive portrayal of men and masculinity in pop culture. Masculine men are usually depicted as bumbling knuckle draggers or are demonized as violent time bombs. 2: Masculine gay men tend to be turned off by the way femininity is praised in gay culture and by how mainstream media shows all gay man as limp wristed ferries so we tend to keep to ourselves more because we don’t want to be associated with that. 3: This younger generation (millennials) are just soft. Even the str8 one just look feminine to me. Recently my partner and I went out to a gay bar and we left after a few minutes because it seemed overrun by “queens”. Back in the day when we were in our 20s the clubs & bars had plenty of masculine dudes who weren’t stereotypically gay. I think what needs to happen is more masculine men need to come out. Hopefully as more bruthas in masculine fields like pro-sports come out it will encourage more masculine men to represent.
Look up the World Health Org. definitions of “sex” and “gender”. They say:
” “Sex” refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women.
“Gender” refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviours, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for men and women.”
“Masculine” is a gender category – things and people are “masculine” if they conform to the “..socially constructed roles… that society considers appropriate for men.” But gender is built on sexism – there would be no “gender” if society didn’t say “these things are OK for males but not for females… those things are OK for females but not for males”. The thing is… if one identifies as cisgender, they subscribe to and support one set of sexist presumptions… and if they identify as transgender, they are supporting the other set. Society is currently encouraging people to identify as transgender (and insisting that everyone accept the transgendered), because this all REINFORCES society’s sexist presumptions. But really, people shouldn’t be judged for what they like and dislike, or for how well they conform to ANY gender stereotype – so the premises of the two videos, and this column, are fundamentally flawed.
I am a male. I work in heavy construction. I paint my nails. In light of the societal presumption that “nail color is for girls, its feminine”, I believe that it takes boldness, confidence, independence and defiance…
What’s your point? Women work in construction. That doesn’t make them less feminine. My mother works for the government and drives an 18 wheeler. If you’re fem you fem if you’re masc you are masc. You paint your nails so to me I would consider you fem.
No one is stating anything is wrong with fems. I certainly didn’t hear that from transgendered Ms. Chanel nor was that the question/s that was posed. No one here is speaking badly upon our gay fem compadres.
I’m not following.
So I don’t know who said it and I ain’t got time to be reviewing, but someone said something about people equating straight with masculine. I don’t think this is true. One of my close frat brothers was raised by his mom, his big sister, and his grandmother. He is a WOMAN in almost everyway, even packs a lisp. BUT, he’s very heterosexual. I think since he’s so soft women let their guards down and then he gets up in there lol.
Dear Mr. @Hannibal, it may have been myself to whom you’re referring. I was saying:
“the wide assumptions that “straight=manly” and “gay=feminine” can create the most bizarre, confusing, and contradictory expectations of straight AND gay people.”
Don’t these “confusing expectations” still apply to your feminine-straight-male friend whose womanhood takes the ladies off-guard………and then he goes down on them or whatever? 🙂
It took me off guard too lol. We pledged together. I just knew while we were on and when we were done that he was like me. And when I came out to him a few years after graduation he patted me on the back and went on about his business of philandering the ladies lol.
When he pat you on the back and continued to philander with the ladies…did you roll your eyes?
In a word, nope. I think hyper masculinity is slowly dying out though. I’m perfectly fine with that. That shit is dangerous and puts unnecessary strain on people of all genders. I think the reason why people believe masculinity is dying out is because in our minds, the only masculinity that exists is hyper masculinity. Since hyper masculinity is fading, we believe masculinity in general is. I’m all for natural masculinity, but that hyper masculine bullshit can go.
Man, @acessential , you really said this shit bro… I think in the discourse surrounding masculinity, we have the tendency to misidentify hyper masculinity as masculinity in itself. Just as you covered in your comment, this is a dangerous tendency in our dialogue. I think an exploration of hyper masculinity as opposed to masculinity should be a forthcoming post or question of the week or summin! lol
Good shit bro!!
Me and @ocky had a long convo about this post and the comments today. We agreed that most ppl automatically think of hyper-masculinity when we have these discussions.
Most of my friends are straight men and none of them are hyper-masculine. HOWEVER, they’re all masculine. They don’t use slang words adopted from women. They don’t have lisps. they don’t have limp wrists. They don’t wipe away imaginary bangs from their foreheads. They are just regular guys. All we’re saying is “Where are the regular guys in the black gay community?” They exist in the white gay community, but they are rare panda bears in the black gay community.
I always tell one of my friends that he’s the most masculine man I know. He’s not a fighter, not a thug, barely uses profanity,. no du-rag, no timbs. He’s corporate professional, loves sports, is about his business, doesn’t use the lingo(although I try to get him to sometimes lol).He’s just a regular dude with a head of household mentality that I think is just plain masculine.
I’m not gonna lie. I have noticed that I am more likely to see black gay men bending gender roles than white gay men. I grew up in minority heavy regions my entire life, so it might be due to that. But, my theory is that for white gay men, in order to hold on to their white privilege, they have to stick as close to the norm as possible. They don’t want to upset their white privilege by crossing gender lines too much. For black gay men, because we’re already marginalized, many of us don’t feel the need to stick to the norm because it wouldn’t benefit us as much as white folks. That’s just a theory. Also, some gay dudes are just really flamboyant and feminine. That’s just the way they are. It’s not an act. More power to them.
I agree with what you said EXCEPT for this notion that gay men are pretending to be masculine just to be privileged or “fit the norm”. This is the biggest fallacy that fem men spread on this site and others. This idea that gay men can be naturally effeminate but NOT be naturally masculine. *sucks teeth*
I’m not saying that there doesn’t exist a certain level of “natural masculinity.” However that’s defined. I was referencing how it’s mentioned that it’s believed that a lot of gay men adopt these stereotypical feminine characteristics when they come out because they feel like that’s what they need to do to be accepted by the gay community. That’s what I’m referring to in terms of crossing gender lines. White gay men may not see adopting certain mannerism as beneficial to them while black gay men do. White gay men are looking to be accepted by the larger heterosexual white community while black gay men are simply looking to be accepted by each other.
Good point man..I met 2 guys at work today who I, unlike the masses, quickly perceived were a couple. Their energy btwn each other would have read s ‘friends’ to most, even most gays, but I peeped it almost immediately. I do think that white dudes have less of a concern w/ ‘fitting in’, even amongst their gay bros. A bit of an example of how white priviledge doesnt deny sexuality boundaries.
A black man can come out, after years of being on the dl, and even in a serious dl relationship, and walk right back into a different kind of closet..
In short @nick, I think we’re all asking that same question bro… You know it’s a mad rabbit hole intellectually man. To ask that one question is to ask so many others: “What the fuck is masculinity anyway?” “Is our definition of the term based on intrinsic or extrinsic principles?” “How/Why is race implicated in our observations?”
I believe that there are a whole host of answers to that one dynamic question, “Where are the regular guys in the black gay community?” I also believe some of the answers to this question are in our exploration of hyper masculinity because I honestly think that’s how homosexual expression gets repressed, especially in the black community. Masculinity does not bar one from being homosexual, hyper masculinity does.
Real talk, the regular dudes who happen to be attracted to other men and appreciate their own masculinity as much as we do ours, haven’t realized that by not expressing their homosexuality they’re personality starts to take on hyper masculine qualities…
The Black man in this country has been perceived as the greatest threat to the sanctity and civility of the people. In an effort to make Black men less of a threat, we have been systematically oppressed,traumatized, and conditioned to exist in a weakened state. There is plenty of evidence of this throughout the annals of history. The Willie Lynch effect is real and it even plays a part in this discussion we’re having.
Since the Black man has emasculated he has been removed from the home. His authority and ability to lead and guide his family has been diminished. His role as father and husband is almost negated. It’s not uncommon to come across children who grew up without their father for many reasons. In his absence, boys do not get the proper modeling they need and girls are affected in similar and different ways.
As it relates to the topic at hand, we have to look deeper at this. We as a collective have lost a grounded notion of what it means to be a man. Many pseudo identities around manhood have been created and implemented to fill the void. None of these artificial ideas of manhood can perpetuate itself in a healthy manner.
Some Black gay men substitute their sexuality for their manhood. These guys get absorbed into a sub-culture that is foreign to their primary culture and the two are at odds. Where are the role models of masculine gay men for one to emulate? In any context, the notion of being a man and homosexual generally do not mix. The challenge is to…
So yea, I didnt edit..blame it on a friday nite/sat morn in new york..but Id hope that my point came across…
So, CA, clearly brought all of us here to this topic. But how do we utilize the fact that many of us are living in the same lane as @nick n @ocky n make it count for something? As we know, there’s no larger inkwell, seeing as how we come here to talk about it. Is it unrealistic or too much to ask that we use our words beyond a comments section. You guys have created the best springboard to communication I see out here. Why not communicate as the men we are beyond keystrokes? Id like to think that any1 taking the time to share their true feelings and perspectives on this site and all of the encompassing topics are beyond only looking for temporary attention, becus there are plenty of easier alternatives out here. Am I reaching, or have u guys literally created the place to begin to dialogue n create the closest thing to an inkwell as there is? Like my man @jd412 said, start mingling, n start communicating. Trust me, Ive already spoken very candidly abt what this site did for me, as a grown ass 31 yr old man adjusting to the end of a loooong dl relationship, not knowing what my next move was, but Id love to see us holding CA down with, and without our laptops. Just sayin..
Man, you on to summin bro! We kind of have a duty to put ourselves out there and be the black gay masculine dudes we want to see even in our day-2-day. We have to present ourselves as we are in our entirety as well, if we are to expect others to do the same. I believe there are more like us too, they just out there somewhere needing something to gravitate towards…
I agree man, sumthin has to be done..i refuse to believe that as the i am, im doomed to a life w my dog! It might be up to us to create that network, n while doin so, make some young kid kno he doesnt have to join the ballroom scene to be a comfortable gay man, unless thats what he wants. My mom asked me, ‘are u sure, ur so manly?’ That made it more clear than ever that I need to step up.
Very interesting points from both sides. I like to think that masculine gay men exist, I consider myself one. And we must admit that this day and age kids are indeed softer and not as used to going outside and getting roughed up like back in the day. Absent fathers, mistaken sexual identity and etc have all contributed to the decline of masculinity in the house as a whole.
I agree with some who stated above, the image of a strong black, intelligent, masculine male is a threat to our white society. The reason fem gays are so popular is because they do not pose the same threat as a more masculine counter part.
Women view their “PETS” (fem gay friends) as a sure thing; “He’s def gay without question, I can’t be attracted to him and I can reap the perks of his talents (ie fashion, make-up etc). Where as more masculine men are a threat because we are charming among other things, and women can easily be smitten by us. Which brings more issues of DL, blah blah blah.
I wish something could be done and we get more masculine role models to surface.
i kinda feel like in this discussion we’ve walked before we started crawling.before we ask the question “Are Masculine Men an Endangered Species?” , can we answer the question of what defines masculinity in the gay community ?
This is where I was getting before I ran out of space. In so many instances, the definition of what it means to be a man has so many interpretations. We as Black men generally do not have a cohesive answer on this topic. Bring in masculinity, which is how manhood is expressed, and you have even more interpretations. We have lost the tradition of rights of passage from boyhood to manhood and that has caused us to take on many different ideals around it.
I agree with you about defining masculinity in the Black gay community. @ocky can we start this as a question of the week?
LOL. This isn’t necessary. It kills me when gay dudes talk about “defining” masculinity. Genuinely masculine men know what masculinity looks like. In my experience, I only ever see effeminate or inbetween men who doubt their own masculinity ask this question…Just from my experience.
Cool. Since I don’t question my manhood or my masculinity it’s not all that important to me personally; however, I will continue to say that the norms about what it means to be a man are not formed on an individual basis. It has been and always will be informed by the members of a given society. The black gay community will continue to be in the state it is in because we trivialize everything. We copy what others do because we refuse to create our own narrative.
I wanted it to reply to multiple threads but that is too much work. What makes me most exhausted by this conversation (without even having participated yet) is the idea of “natural” masculinity (or femininity, or anything really), that these social identities and performances are stable across time, space, cultures, or even in the context of an individual “self.” This fact underscores any specific point I would have to make about the language and assumptions that have been made during these conversations.
I also don’t think that hyper-masculinity has died out, certainly not among the poorest of us black folk (who no one wants to acknowledge ever). I think hyper-masculinity has been come superficially unattractive (because who wants to deal with that shit), but in popular conversation people don’t really talk about how “normal” or “natural” masculinities are informed by the same economies of power as hyper-masculinity (or look at the ways hyper-masculinity arises as not only as a gendered but racialized performance). Mainly how does gender policing (a long standing imperialist tradition, mind you) work to create both “natural” and “put on” masculinities and how does framing this conversation in a way that privileges “masculine” gay identity or masculine identity in general as some necessary fixture of the world work to further than gender policing?
Daaaaaaaammmmmmnnnnnnn……. I’m wit u bro, U really pinpointed some crucial elements in the intellectual dialogue of masculinity.
You really nailed that shit with this part tho “but in popular conversation people don’t really talk about how “normal” or “natural” masculinities are informed by the same economies of power as hyper-masculinity.”
Good shit mayne!
For me personally I don’t feel like I have witnessed enough to actually say that there aren’t many gay masculine men around us. I also used to think that gay masculine gay men didn’t exist. However, in the past couple of months I have met a lot of masculine gay guys. Reading this article made me think about how some of these masculine men that I have met are discreet or even closeted. These guys in particular aren’t visible to the gay community; I mean you won’t find them in gay bars, gay clubs, or any type of gay event. Some of them you may find online, but then there are others who don’t go online since they aren’t comfortable with online dating.
For instance there is this one guy that I did happen to meet online before I completely stopped using online dating sites. After I got to know him more I realized how discreet he was. He totally disliked the gay scene. Also most of his friends are heterosexual and they don’t know he is gay. If it wasn’t for the website we used I don’t know how else I would have met him. It just makes me wonder how many other masculine gay guys are in a similar situation. This may explain why there is a perception that not many of them exist because they don’t make themselves visible to the gay community.
On the flip side I have also met many masculine gay men that are more comfortable with their sexuality and thus you can find in gay clubs or bars. These past couple of months have proven me wrong! They exist more than we think.
I think the reason many masculine are not visible in the gay community is due to rejecting the gay culture because it doesn’t represent or speak to them.
Yes I totally agree with you man. I hate the mainstream definition of what it means to be gay. It’s like there is no place for masculine gay men in the gay culture because it only represents the interests of feminine gay men. It’s really irritating, hopefully one day this will change. I know personally when I go out I always feel like there is a masculine energy missing which makes it harder for me to want to go out to gay clubs or bars.
The way most people think is a guy is masculine OR feminine, whereas most guys (gay, straight and bi) are both masculine AND feminine. It is a spectrum. Also, this commonly coveted idea that women & femininity are weak and inferior is bullshit and hateful. Masculine appearing same sex loving men have an easier time blending in/passing as straight just by appearance alone so whereas it seems like there are more feminine gay and bi men, that is not necessarily true once again. I’ve had conversations with older people in the trans community who were around the NYC & DC in the days of The Stonewall Riots and they always talk about how boring things are in gay male clubs nowadays and how everyone is trying to appear as hard and “thug-like” as possible in comparison to their day when people were adventurous and would dress in costumes whenever they would go out. I am naturally masculine (and feminine too) but overall I think many men worship masculinity as if its the greatest thing in the world but just because a guy is masculine, doesn’t mean he will be loving, intelligent, goal oriented, good in bed, a good life partner or any of the other things people look for in another person.
“I am naturally masculine (and feminine too)”
And feminine too? Then you’re NOT naturally masculine, you’re inbetween. Embrace it.
That got a side eye from me too
Being a young black male I’d first like to think that I’m Masculine. I think that coming from different areas and walks of life each man has his own view if what masculine is. I will admit I’m not the manliest of men, but I feel i carry myself accordingly and I have no desire to act, be , or carry myself in an effeminate way. I feel that more effeminate men are becoming more prevalent is because they are the ones who really just don’t give a fuck. It takes a lot of courage to want act feminine openly. I do think that a lot of people over exaggerate this which gives being gay this flamboyant imagine (We all know negative connections are stronger than positive ones). This is not to let masculine men off the hook. I don’t think masculine men are rare or endangered, I think they are ellusive
I think that coming from different areas and walks of life each man has his own view if what masculine is. I will admit I’m not the manliest of men, but I feel i carry myself accordingly and I have no desire to act, be , or carry myself in an effeminate way. I feel the reason why more effeminate men are becoming more prevalent is because they are the ones who really just don’t give a fuck. It takes a lot of courage to want to act feminine openly. I do think that a lot of people over exaggerate this which gives being gay this flamboyant imagine (We all know negative connections are stronger than positive ones). This is not to let masculine men off the hook. I don’t think masculine men are rare or endangered( this could be my Atlanta mindset), I think they are elusive. “Masculine” gay men are to busy trying to prove how unlike they are to effeminate men that they remain in the shadows. I personally could benefit from a strong presence of more masculine gays who are not to busy competing with one another, trying to sleep with me, or doesn’t want anyone to know they are gay. So to sum everything up masculine men are not rare they only appear rare because to many are trying to go against what the media portrays gays to be. So tops off to those who even claim masculine gay because it comes in many forms whether your clean cut, manly, thug, butch, whatever it may be because until we can get people to embrace the idea of even being openly masculine it will remain rarity.
I am a masculine gay man. In my opinion, a truly masculine guy is one that can pass for straight in a crowd (other people may disagree but thats ok)
I don’t think we’re extinct, it’s just harder to find us. But once you find one of us, you find us all. We’re all friends.
For example, in college, the first on-campus guy that I hooked up with was a mascuine guy. Later on that he invited me to play a pickup of game of basketball with his friends and to chill afterwards at his dorm…
All of the guys we played basketball with were gay or bisexual! And I befriended them and we are still friends to this day. To feminine guys who don’t have a circle of masculine gay friends, of course we look extinct, but really we are just under the surface.
I do not hate feminine guys (my boyfriend is similar to “Fred” lol) but so many of them are loud and malicious in club settings, and I dont want to be a part of that scene. Most of my masculine gay friends arent part of that scene. Thats why you see so many “no fems” parties, its not to discriminate its to discourage buffoonery.
Note to the gay community: if you want to see more masculine gay men, stop having female r&b singers perform at all the nightclubs and stop having drag shows, and make a dress code for your guests.
THANK YOU!!! Why is this rocket science? Other than ur network of masc friends (as for gay circles Ive been living under a rock somewhere), I hear u 100%!
Im so tired of people on here acting like they dont know what a naturally masculine dude is! No one is trying to force anyone to be one, but everyone wants to sit here and ignore the existence of all of the dudes they see at work, school, or down the street, every.fukn.day! Just becus he’s straight doesnt mean he’s a ‘diff type’ of masculine.
Pretty soon, dudes are gona be like, ‘well im masc for an in between dude who only does drag every once in a while’! O yea????
And hell, I like rnb like the next 90’s music head too, but why do half the dudes in the club have on the same shoes as the singer?
*crawls back under my rock*
What up guys, a year late to the party. I’m “white” according to the gov. But white the way a polar bear is, under all that white is jet black skin. Basically if you enjoy good music you’re black, haha. All the good music originated with black artists, ignoring classical. Black culture is superior in so many ways. Anyway manly homos…that’s where it’s at. I wish I knew what you meant by if you find one of us you find us all. I agree with a lot of you that because the gay culture is not speaking to us(even though they speak “for us” god dammit), we don’t have places to gather. I’m a filmmaker and musical artist among other things, an athlete, a comedian. I see it as my duty to all the bro homos out there to redeem the manly homo in the international imagination by finally portraying him. Unleash a fleet of manly homos I will. I’ll be a target instantly because of how we ‘threaten’ the way of things…all these dudes married to women will realize they were bi all along, they just didn’t have enough exposure to manly dudes getting romantic and shit, or the balls to see that part of themself until it was way closer to mainstream.
Media is the constant ingredient in every culture. Heavily-American media. Back in film school a casting director told us they’d witnessed many brute gents trying out for parts of dudes that are homo and the common judgement of the casting directors was that the men were “too manly”. I want to firebomb the Hollywood sign, but only if they know this is why. Shackles on my soul every day that every dude like me has to be perceived as some anomaly for speaking with use of his balls when this is the way shit used to be. I can’t imagine why so few media wielders released a portrayal of manly homos. Symbolic annihilation describes the absence of representation, or underrepresentation, of some group of people in the media. Looks like I have to be the first one to make a movie that’s blazingly badass whose core beats with men in love? God knows we’ve seen enough movies with hetero shits getting slobbery. Overpopulating the place and shit. When they hate me in the South one day because I turned the tides and made it not just accepted, but cool for Jeremiah to take Jerome to the watering hole for a hot dip, well. I’ll make money from the hate by selling pictures of myself to the shooting ranges.
When you see a dude you are into, ask him out. For me, I’m only attracted to guys who could only be known to be gay if asked. Getting shot down a million times is better than walking away wondering. One time it worked for me and I might still be with the guy if he hadn’t lied to me about his age, real awesome dude. He didn’t enjoy getting topped though so it was doomed anyway haha.
When you think there are no manly gay dudes out there think of Alexander the Great, Frank Ocean, Jason Collins, Michael Sam, Michelangelo, Wentworth Miller, Channing Tatum (bi)…does Freddie Mercury count as manly? Sure, his music plays at hockey games. And we should count Eminem and Vladimir Putin because only manlovers could be that homophobic. These guys make it nice not to be the first outta the gates but we’re gonna make it way nicer for the next gen manly faggots.