Birthright citizenship

Discussion in 'Race, Religion, Science and Politics' started by BlackExcellence, May 11, 2016.

  1. BlackExcellence

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    So I was talking to one of my friends about Trump. He's moderate leaning liberal but just slightly. Anyway he said he agrees with Trump on birthright citizenship a little bit. He thinks it should only be if you have an American parent and not if you're born here. My liberal side went defensive but I couldn't quite think of a good argument against him. As for what if you're born here he wouldn't deport the kid but he also wouldn't give the kid automatic citizenship. Any thoughts?
     
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  2. OckyDub

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    I agree...
     
    #2 OckyDub, May 11, 2016
    Last edited: May 11, 2016
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  3. Winston Smith

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    When it comes to immigration, I'm reminded of an old song, "there's three sides to every story / yours, mine, and the cold, hard truth." Both parties are duplicitous on the issues. For example, Trump wants to make birthright citizenship a Mexican issue. The reality is that Chinese nationals are heavy into "birthright tourism" (deliberately coming to the U.S. in third trimester of pregnancy to have the kid, go back to China and thus have a legal foothold on future claims).

    The issue that matters to me is the black elephant in the middle of the room that nobody will talk about, INCLUDING Obama, Clinton and the Congressional Black Caucus: the effect of illegal labor on black male unemployment. That's why I'm non-partisan and refuse to rubber stamp Hillary just because many of us want to follow like lemmings. Trump might bring the issue up, but he will only do it from a position of duplicity. It's a shame that black folk are encouraged to fight for every community's rights to the disdavantage of our own. I hate when the media says "blacks and Latinos" as if the positions and aspirations are the same. They aren't.
     
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  4. BlackguyExecutive

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    Well I think something called the 14th Amendment has already resolved this issue. Despite popular belief, the "anchor babying" is less a problem then people like Donald Trump would like you to think. A more significant problem is 1) dealing with the people who are already here, 2) addressing the issue of people staying here after they come here legally through the proper visa channels, these people are European and East Asian mostly. Also, the President has deported A LOT of mother fuckers. We need to addressed the 12 million people we currently have in the country and come of with better metrics to monitor those who come in and make them leave when their time is up!
     
    #4 BlackguyExecutive, May 11, 2016
    Last edited: May 12, 2016
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  5. OckyDub

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    Not to negate all of this (valid points) but this wasn't the initial question.

    ALSO...I have no problem admitting that I always confuse @BlackExcellence and @BlackguyExecutive Not just because their names are similar but because they both (I feel) always make some intelligent valuable points.
     
    #5 OckyDub, May 11, 2016
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  6. BlackguyExecutive

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    I will only speak to the Birth Right Citizenship question. The 14th Amendment enfranchised slaves into the citizenry and encoded into the constitution that people born in this country are citizens and you are a citizen if you are born to an American parent overseas but you actually have to be naturalized. Its a little different from the foreign to naturalized citizenship threshold. Birth Right citizenship protects us, it says that our country cannot deny us. Just because you have an anchor baby doesn't mean you simply get to stay. Your baby may be American but you are not, most people don't leave their babies. Now their American children once they become adults can apply for you to come but that is an 18 year long investment to come, you are more likely to have a better chance of simply applying to immigrate to America. You just don't pop out a kid and get to stay, that is the myth. The process doesn't work that way.
     
    #6 BlackguyExecutive, May 11, 2016
    Last edited: May 12, 2016
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  7. Winston Smith

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    The president has tried to address this issue through his DACA program, the proposed DAPA program (which is pending before the SCOTUS) and prosecutorial discretion. The DAPA decision will be interesting as it will be out by June and will weigh heavy on the election. With Scalia (thankfully) dead, the president should prevail.
     
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  8. GNerd2012

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    I agree with your friend, and I will use the Muslim immigration issue as an example. If the parent is born in the US and has been assimilated into our values and customs, then the offspring may be considered a US citizen. The reason I agree is because someone should only be considered a citizen of this country if their values align with the national Constitutional values we all share. Sure, diversity is a great thing; however, certain beliefs need to be universal within our land. For example, the right to bear arms, the right to free speech, being able to attain life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness without having your race, sex, sexual orientation, creed, religion blocking you from these pursuits. The Muslim population have been violating all of these rights, particularly in the UK where the immigrant crisis is reaching a breaking point, due to them not undergoing a process of assimilation to Western values. Sure, everyone has a right to practice a religion; unfortunately, certain thing cannot be tolerated which are the oppression of females, murdering individuals who speak against your beliefs, LGBT tracking and murder, pedophilia, and merging religion with the law.
     
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  9. BlackguyExecutive

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    Let's break this down. The problems that Europe has with their immigrant populations particularly, Muslim communities is that Europe is horrible at assimilation. They are great at admitting vulnerable people but they don't attempt to make people French, or British, or German, or Norwegian by bringing them into the fold. It is quite the opposite in the United States, we do a great job getting people to assimilate into our culture, that is because our immigrants can live where they want, shop where they want, attend schools, community functions etc. In Europe, Muslim communities are often ghettoized and excluded. That breeds radicalization. There are Americans, people born and raised in the US are more likely to commit some kind of act of terrorism over an immigrant who is grateful to be in our nation.

    The reason I agree is because someone should only be considered a citizen of this country if their values align with the national Constitutional values we all share. Sure, diversity is a great thing; however, certain beliefs need to be universal within our land. For example, the right to bear arms, the right to free speech, being able to attain life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness without having your race, sex, sexual orientation, creed, religion blocking you from these pursuits.

    This is a faulty premise because the constitution affords us the freedom to reject it all. The European altruism is noble because they open their doors to displaced peoples but they don't get that the state has an obligation and duty to bring those people into the culture. For example, growing up in the late 90s we had 5 croatian families move into our neighborhood, all refugees from the former Yugoslavia genocide, the first thing our neighborhood did was invite them to our 4th of July celebrations and their kids joined our little league soccer team. That doesn't happen in Europe, like it does in America and that is why we don't have the problems they do with immigrant terrorists.
     
  10. GNerd2012

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    I would not say it's faulty because every country, nation, and even village has a set of rules that need to be followed. Our Constitution is our set of rules that need to be followed, so I don't think they can be "rejected." That is why many of the alt right, or regressive left critics grow angry when certain Constitutional values are violated by foreigners such as freedom of speech, women's rights, or freedom of religion.

    I may not know Europe too well, but you strengthen my point that a person needs to be assimilated into the culture properly in order to be considered a citizen.
     
  11. BlackExcellence

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    I understand why the 14th amendment was written that way i.e. to affirm the citizenship of slaves and native Americans. But why do we need that provision NOW? That problem was remedied.

    I'm not very familiar with anchor babies but I thought the mom got to stay?
     
  12. BlackExcellence

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    "which are the oppression of females, murdering individuals who speak against your beliefs, LGBT tracking and murder, pedophilia, and merging religion with the law."

    White American Christians do all of these things. If we're gonna deport Muslims send them off too.
     
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  13. BlackguyExecutive

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    We need that provision now because when you remove rights you don't usually get them back. We need the 14th Amendment because we don't need rogue states and governors making determinations about citizenship. I am looking at you Texas.

    It is false that mothers of anchored babies <-----I personally hate that term get to stay in America with their babies. Just because your kid is American doesn't give you a free pass. In most cases, after you are well enough to be discharged from the hospital and your time on your visa expires you have to go back to where ever you came. That is for kids with no parent that is American, what happens often is that family members who are here then use their Rights as citizens to work within the system to extend provisions for people. That means the conspiracy starts when you get pregnant, reach out to family to inform them of your plan to anchor a baby, they agree to work on your behalf, you fly or cross the border late in your pregnancy and hope you go into labor. Then after your kid turns 18, assuming he/she has lived here will seek for your status to immigrate to the US. When alternatively, you can apply wait a while, pay a shit ton of money and assuming your background is good be granted some kind of legal status in the United States.
     
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  14. alton

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    "...pursuit of happiness without having your race, sex, sexual orientation, creed, religion blocking you from these pursuits"

    Not to jump off topic and I dont want this to derail the original thread but, this in itself is a contradiction as "we" as Americans block our own citizens' pursuits of happiness using these very same things. lol
     
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  15. GNerd2012

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    No they don't. Maybe back in the 1800s, but not today. The only criticism I have for White American Catholics/Mormons is their "look the other way" tolerance for pedophilia in their cathedrals, but even then, those type of churches are the minority and exist in the far out areas like Utah, Oregon, or Montana.
     
  16. BlackguyExecutive

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    I am pretty sure if I had the time to dig up some pretty gross statistics on white christians and black christians treatment of marginalized people to include women and lgbt people, often through violent means and shockingly high rates disownership. I wanted even get started on how catholics and christians allow people in power to prey on kids. Love him or hate him, the LGBT activist and white gay establishment spokesperson Dan Savage points out this pedofile hypocrisy of the church and chronicles on his website the quite frequent instances when youth ministers and priest are busted for they continue to worry about trans people and bathrooms.
     
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  17. BlackExcellence

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    Oh yes they do. How else would categorize the abortion clinic killings?
     
  18. BlackExcellence

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    Well first states have no jurisdiction over citizenship matters. But I didn't advocate altering the 14th amendment at all besides being born here and receiving automatic citizenship.

    Ah ok thanks for the knowledge
     
  19. acessential

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    I'm pretty sure that revoking birthright citizenship would not only be debilitatingly difficult, but would also create way more problems than it solves. Yes, it would get rid of issues like "birth tourism." (Which I honestly think is such a miniscule problem in the grand scheme of things). But it would put millions of Americans in limbo and potentially negatively impact the economy and create social unrest. Plus, I think birthright citizenship is cool. Not to sound too patriotic, but I think it is one of the things that makes America so great.
     
  20. BlackExcellence

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    I do think it's a relatively minuscule problem in the grand scheme of things but some border cities and towns may feel differently. Im not supporting revoking birthright citizenship but letting it sunset at some point in the future. I'm still on the fence in general but my friend made some compelling points.
     
  21. acessential

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    I get where you're coming from, but I do think that issues like this overstate the negative impact and neglect any positive outcomes.
     
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