Can Straight and Gay men be friends?

Discussion in 'Group Discussions' started by Boaxy, Mar 22, 2018.

  1. Boaxy

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    Here I talk about this topic.

     
    #1 Boaxy, Mar 22, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2018
  2. Luke Evergreen

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    I get along better with straight men than straight women, contrary to the stereotype that gay men get long with straight women better.
     
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  3. Boaxy

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    I envy you so much. I just can't with straight men. I'm way too ghetto and black and fem and homo and gay.

    To me I'd be associates with straight men, if they aren't bigots and we are chill.

    But really I just want a boyfriend to act as my bodyguard really. To keep me the most company.

    I guess friendships and relationships are weird that way.
     
  4. Coon_dalini

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    Yes you definitely can! I actually prefer straights as friends . It’s even better if they accept you for who you are . Especially if you’re not obsessed with sex and you’re not into talking about men and boys all the time. Far less drama. Straights can be just as dysfunctional but you generally know where they stand with you and are more predictable.

    I want to engage a conversation about the phenomenon of people you slept with in the “friend zone”. And actually keeping them as road dawgs.It’s weird to me. But that’s just me I guess. Running folks for a “ test drive” only to become your competition. Complicated.
     
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  5. machoBLKnerd

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    how do ppl's sexual inclinations translate into qualities that make them a preferred friend?

    when non-str8 men express a preference for straight ppl (as friends), i can't help but think it is an sign of discomfort with oneself or the age-old desire to be straight. i say this, in part, b/c it doesn't seem gay women hold this view as much as gay dudes, perhaps since female sexualities are less stigmatized.

    have straight friends, have gay friends. have friends. but to hold preferences for ppl for an orientation that you don't have is, well, interesting.

    let's be honest: gay (blk) dudes need to have a come to jesus moment about internalized homophobia, including stigmas or anti gay sentiments projected toward one other that pass as "preferences". gay men want to be (accepted by) str8 men so bad.

    i was most struck by these statements: "i actually prefer str8 friends. it's even better if they accept you". i didnt realize being accepted was negotiable or an added bonus in friendship. with all due respect, there's a lot you might want to unpack about that.

     
    #5 machoBLKnerd, Apr 4, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2018
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  6. takeyourmeds91

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    I agree with the bolded. It's absolutely possible once the straight gets over the fact that you love and sleep with men AND if you've never hit on him or continue to hit on him haha

    I get along with most straight guys until it's revealed that I'm gay. Then some of them start acting funny as if something changed.
     
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  7. takeyourmeds91

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    I think when some gay men say they prefer to be friends with straight men, they really mean to say, they prefer to engage in societal norms that are masculine and have been historically ascribed to the "straight man". Just because they are gay doesn't mean they need to be the stereotype - that's the whole point of this website and is reasonable. I don't think they're saying they want to be friends with him simply because of his orientation - that would be odd.

    When we have these discussions we have to be careful to tease out gender/gender norms from orientation which are often used interchangeably. It sounds like your point is for those in dissonance who do not innately feel aligned to the particular gender they outwardly claim to feel closest. That's a valid conversation but seems like an assumption of the person whose post you referenced.

    In terms of the "accepted" part - it could have been that he meant being able to be cool with someone who is similar to you in many ways other than who you choose to love without fear of being ostracized and devalued for that particular detail. I don't think that needs unpacking and again, is reasonable.
     
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  8. Coon_dalini

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    No self hate here for me. It’s actually self love. When I was 17 and cruised by a middle aged guy as I waited on the bus after school (SMH) Once I got the (ride) out the cold and exchanged that for the anticipated bump and grind session at his place, in a very mentor-like demeanor after he told me I was destined to be “hot” as my look matured by 25 , he said “ make SURE most of your friends are “straight”. Even then I understood him , but as I skirted around the lifestyle it became VERY CLEAR what he meant. And I’m positive I don’t have to explain myself any further. Jealousy,envy and outright hate and narcissism are rampant in the black gay community. It did not take long for me to learn to FISH effectively. Cast my rod (pun intended) get what I wanted and get away from the shore. The process has served me well. I caught CARP at times that managed to throw me off balance but managed to never fall in the lake head first. I will say that approach while saving me drama on the one hand created the crazy situation of having “had” more than my comfortable share of people in the circuit or a huge clique. Showing up at a party and having had 3 or more people there is not a good look FOR ME (my preference) But I created the situation. Which makes you want to hide underground in the sex app scene or worse , the book stores. But back on topic , having mostly straight friends greatly limits crossing sexual paths with friends and acquaintances. The less gay friends , the less public cross hooking up confusion. Translation.. peace of mind.
    And no, I’m not particularly comfortable with talking about and borderline gossiping about men all the time. I don’t want that mindset reinforced within me. Dodging stds and HIV . Dealing with narcissism and attention whores you can’t take seriously ,is more than enough to think about for me.
    Not anti gay. Simply keeping collateral damage to a minimum. Who you run with can make or break you. And the truth is there are a lot of broken black men in general . Let alone black and gay.
     
    #8 Coon_dalini, Apr 4, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2018
  9. Coon_dalini

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    Thanks for clarifying that for me bruh!
     
  10. jusrawb

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    I had mad straight friends, male and female, before coming out we did everything together. Once I came out it created a divide (with the males) and we seem to cant relate to each other anymore. They don't know what to say, every conversation is awkward, as if they dont want to offend me. My straight female friends never changed but some do have awkward moments being that I'm the first gay person they know personally.

    Now the friends that I've met since coming out are refreshing. Though I will say the straight males friendship are still weird. Even though they are friends with you, some of them still have that ignorant hate towards gay stuff. Most often you see it in what they say to others or post on social media. You may even hear "your cool but that nigga is gay af or thats some gay sh*t". On the other end you get the curious straight male friends that is a little too comfortable but never misses a moment to remind you "but im straight though". I haven't met a straight male friend thats just a good friend that is interested in listening to what is going on in your life just as well as you are his. The females friends since coming out are cool but you have to remind them every gay person isnt what you see on tv, ask questions but dont assume.
     
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  11. machoBLKnerd

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    it takes quite a leap trying to make these two distinct ideas mean the same thing:
    • “i adhere to traditional masc norms historically ascribed to str8 men” (what you said)
    • “i prefer to have str8 men as friends over men who share my sexual orientation and it’s a bonus IF they accept me” (what the other poster said and what i've heard b4)
    two clarifications:
    • i’m a masc, still closeted, former h.s. varsity athlete. i never implied gay men have to be feminine tropes. i just believe gay/bisexual men have access to a broader range of possibilities than the two-option binary implied in your message: either you're a gay stereotype or you accept the norms constructed by str8 men.
    • my post focused on preferences in friendship tied to sexual orientation (who you sleep with). i never mentioned gender expression (who you wake up as). i was not thinking at all about “those in dissonance [about their gender]" -- none of this is relevant to any points i made.
    you mentioned that some masc gays wish to subscribe to "societal norms that ... have been historically ascribed to the str8 man". i believe it's kinda thirsty trying to align with ppl and constructs that have actively excluded you. we can agree to disagree on this point.

    if the masc gay men you mention want their preferences to be respected, why do i keep seeing weekly posts about str8 men who do not accept gay men? shouldn’t the rights of str8 men to be around like-minded individuals also be respected? but whenever str8 men express their preferences, gay dudes here make these butt-hurt, ranting posts about the need for blk men to confront their heteronormativity and privilege. real talk, sometimes it makes kats sound like those blk gays who get upset when white men on apps don't want them.

    if we accept that @Coon_dalini and others prefer str8 friends b/c, in his case, an older gay advised him to stay clear of other gays as friends, why can't str8 men stay clear of gays as friends too? how can str8 men be expected to believe smthng different about gay men than what gays communicate about each other? it is clear that many masc blk gays want to position themselves as exceptional, as the magical negroes of the blk gay community lol they be on that #imnotlikethem swag that segments of oppressed grps historically use to distance themselves from their stigmatized grp identification.

    virtually all strides made for gay ppl have been led by fems. they are the ones getting shamed in school and harassed on the street. they are the ones doing the work in the trenches. they take the hits for the rest. seems like many masc gay men want the social benefits gained from the labor of feminine males, but when it’s time to show solidarity, they want to have “preferences” and to be with their own selective kind. this is an interesting dynamic. i'd be lying if i said i always understand fem dudes, but i respect their hustle b/c it has made your life and mine much easier. but all i ever see is disparaging remarks about them.

    i could embrace your point more if these masc gay men made themselves more visibile, if they were leading some kind of change for gays. however, too many are still battling themselves largely because of these societal norms they so dearly want to be a part of. isn't that ironic?

     
    #11 machoBLKnerd, Apr 6, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2018
  12. takeyourmeds91

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    You brought up a lot of valid points that I would have loved to address but it would make my post way too long. Overall, the thing I took issue with is automatically assuming that a masculine gay man is trying to run away from his sexuality because he wants straight friends. You're right, homosexuality isn't binary and I guarantee if he could find other gay masculine-leaning men like him, he'd much rather do that. The reality is that this type of gay man (by sheer numbers and admittedly some lack of visibility) is not ubiquitous in society. This is compared to the thousands of straight men that you could bump into and connect with. It's just a numbers game.

    I do NOT advocate or condone being friends with someone who does not accept you and makes you feel the need to hide. And if you are only friends with that person to keep up appearances then that's another discussion.

    What I also don't condone is being obligated to befriend another person just off strength that you both share the same orientation.
    That's like forcing your friendship on the other black person in the office just because yall are black - yall could be two completely different people.

    None of this is to say that two gay men on different parts of the spectrum can't be friends but the likelihood that they share enough of the same interests to create a great friendship might be low.

    I think you're keying in on the "bonus" part too much. Read the rest of his explanation of why he wants to be friends with straight men - it's not even about the orientation. It's about a set of qualities that align with how he chooses to live his life.
     
    #12 takeyourmeds91, Apr 6, 2018
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  13. Coon_dalini

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    I enjoyed this comment. Good points raised. But isn’t asking for “solidarity” amongst gays akin to asking for solidarity among all black people because they share the same skin color? It’s an unrealistic notion.

    The older guy that cruised me and gave me advice was forwarding me of the aspect of gay culture which many call “messy” that tends to be more blatant in the gay community in comparison to the straight community among males. Some have an affinity with that part of the culture, others don’t.

    We all know there are fems who are not messy. Just as we painfully find out that many gay that have a masculine look can really surprise you with the fires that start proceeding from their mouths. So maybe I should rephrase what my preference is, to be more specific . I prefer to keep company with CONFIDENT,SECURE AND RESERVED men. More about business and what’s good for the black community at large , and less about the bullshit. And we all know what bullshit can be. Who’s who and who’s fucking who. Unfortunately when you get “social” with a lot of the gays of all persuasions, the extra is involved. As lonely as it can get sometimes I have to stay on the side lines. Sad commentary, but true.

    When someone says they prefer straight friends I think they are referring to my take on the social aspect. Relationships based more on shared interests and less on the common ground of being attracted to the same sex and the scene that creates prospects.
     
  14. machoBLKnerd

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    we may not agree on many things here, but i appreciate the dialogue, gentlemen. i see more value in these kinds of conversations than, for example, who wants to wear a dress. looking forward to future exchanges.

    @takeyourmeds91, i was careful to look back at my posts each time you responded, as i genuinely wanted to understand your interpretations of my comments. i do try to approach conversations with the goal of understanding rather than imposing my view on others. of course, ego can make this a difficult task at times -- i am a man after all -- but this had been and remains my sincere goal. having said this, much of your responses focused on arguments i didn't actually make or on positions that were not directly related to my comments (i.e., gays as fem stereotypes and conflating masculinity norms with gender expression). i am particularly confident that i held a way more nuanced position than "a masculine gay man is [automatically] trying to run away from his sexuality just because he wants straight friends". i believe this misrepresents my words entirely. in the spirit of honest, productive dialogue, i hope we can try to avoid making straw man claims. now, one of the most salient implications of my posts is that many gay men want the world to confront and reevaluate streotypes about gays for their benefit, even as they hold tight to generalizations and disparaging beliefs about others in their own group. but i see a great opportunity for masc gay men, especially ones on a platform such as this, to help reshape dialogue on blk manhood and masculinity, given first-hand experiences with being excluded historically. but, more often than not, dudes seem more interested in reinforcing and idealizing tropes of blk masculinity that str8 men can't even live up to. i know this b/c i have spent the last few yrs interviewing several hundred blk men and boys over three major cities, whom i presume are mostly str8 and who overwhelmingly share in private dialogue how isolated and exhausted they feel as a result of trying meet unrealistic expectations of blk masculinity. it would be dope if masc gay men were at the forefront of productive convos with each other and for black boys of all sexualities about these challenges. i'm trying to confront my own issues around the topics we've discussed here so i'm def not speaking as someone who has arrived. i'm speaking as someone who is trying to improve himself and who wants to push the conversation forward. at the very least, i hope to have offered some new viewpoints in our exchanges for you to consider from another masc man. cheers.

    @Coon_dalini, i want to be clear: i'm no expert on this at all. i grew up in the projects across the street from the county jail in a city reported as the murder capital of the united states. i'm the only man in my family who has not been to prison, and i def have specific preferences, like all ppl, around how men should be based on my upbringing. today, as i approach my mid 30's, i'm still working on telling my parents that i like dudes with fat asses lol so we're all here growing and learning together. that said, i am clear from all the work i've been doing w/ young blk men that the msgs they receive on what it means to be a man and manly are both not working for them and their communities. we frankly are not raising enough men who are stable partners, mentors, fathers, etc., so smthng is clearly off. observations like this lead me to question, if str8 masculinity norms are not even working for str8 men, why do so many gay men continue to idealize them so much as the standard for their behavior, especially when such norms continue to exclude them? i am convinced they should not be anybody's standard. also, there's just smthng in me, for no other reason than just wanting to be a decent person, that just doesn't feel right about the ways fems are demonized within this community whether openly or low-key. and i do not pretend to understand everything about them or their behaviors. to answer your question, i have no clue what solidarity would look like. it looks different in different communities and i dont know whether it is or isnt realistic. but i def think it feasible for masc gay men to ask of themselves to do what they eagerly ask str8 men to do: reexamine their stereotypes, reconsider judgements as well as see and speak about ppl as complex individuals rather than members of badly maligned groups. cheers.
     
    #14 machoBLKnerd, Apr 8, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2018
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  15. Coon_dalini

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    Stereotypes are just what humans do. Not going away anytime soon. Especially since for the most part they are based on what people see at large and are exposed to be it media or in person. Wouldn’t you agree that it’s more being realistic about how just because you share the same skin color , race or sexual preference it’s not going to necessarily be a bridge to solidarity. And “solidarity “? ... against what? People judging, setting themselves apart, thinking they are better than another group are simply characteristics of those of us that choose to stay in our base nature. Anything other than that requires spiritual evolvement and that is not the order of the day at large. It’s like we want this fantasy utopia type world , but no one really wants to to put in the work. And why? Because no one wants to set a standard or accept a standard for all to achieve to. The judging , the separatism and classism are all the general acceptance moral relativity. I have my standards , you have yours mentality.
    You can’t have the best of both worlds. You can’t expect anyone to accept you as you are or where you’re at if there is really no standard set for both of you to achieve. If it’s a free for all, (which it is today and has always been since Eden) , I have no right to demand or expect others NOT to hold me to their OWN PERSONAL STANDARDS whatever that may be. And I’ll have to do the same as well, to either protect myself or get what I want. Stereotypes can be a short cut unless I have the time and energy to possibly see past stereotypes to form my own detailed judgement of a potential return on my investment. We all do this and I can’t expect others not to in a world that promotes moral relativity.
     
    #15 Coon_dalini, Apr 9, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2018
  16. takeyourmeds91

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    "when non-str8 men express a preference for straight ppl (as friends), i can't help but think it is an sign of discomfort with oneself or the age-old desire to be straight."

    "let's be honest: gay (blk) dudes need to have a come to jesus moment about internalized homophobia, including stigmas or anti gay sentiments projected toward one other that pass as "preferences". gay men want to be (accepted by) str8 men so bad."


    These were your words though. How else was this meant to be interpreted? Is that not running from your sexuality?

    In general, my response was to those ideas which was, yes that's a valid discussion we can have but be careful when making generalizations and possibly erroneously labeling someone when you didn't ask for clarification. At the end of that same message, you told that dude he has things he needs to unpack and never once asked him what he meant by his initial statement.

    The rest of my points were to have you consider another possibility behind his comment before labeling him as one of the "gay (blk) dudes that needs to have a come to jesus moment"

    At any rate, it's too difficult to stress the point I'm trying to make through the internet anyway.
     
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  17. BlackguyExecutive

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    I think straight men and gay men can definitely be friends. My two best male friends are straight and they are like my brothers, my ride or dies. Sexuality has nothing to do with our friendship.

    So many gay men yearn for that fraternal brotherhood that was missing in our youth because we spent so much of our time pretending at best or being ridiculed at worst. So many of us need to unpack previous trauma both mental and physical and put it away and close fraternal bonds will follow.
     
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  18. Infinite_loop

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