50 Dead in Gay Nightclub, Worst Mass Shooting in U.S. history

Discussion in 'LGBT News and Events' started by Nick Delmacy, Jun 12, 2016.

  1. BlackguyExecutive

    BlackguyExecutive Je suis diplomate
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    I am going to put on my Diplomat's hat. First, the notion that is largely perpetuated by the right that Obama is somehow soft on terrorism is categorically untrue. It is also a false notion that Obama somehow sympathizes with terrorists is also categorically untrue. The record would show that President Obama has been ruthless when it comes to taking Terrorist off the battlefield through both conventional and nonconventional means. In other words, the president has a lot of terrorist blood on his hands and the world is safer for it. Secondly, what the President is doing with respect to his rhetoric is tailoring his messages to in ways that will not alienate the very people we need in the fight against radical islamic extremists, which by the way is a term that the right has poll tested that works to get their base of voters agitated. It doesn't actually mean anything. Which is the point the President was making in his press conference today. For example, in my line of work, I refer to those same people as Jihadists, why because it is an more accurate depiction of who groups like ISIL are, they are Jihadist, a Jihad is a Holy War, a Holy War is a battle of ideology which Abrahamic religion is superior. That scenario is plain stupid. But, if we frame the narrative like we are now engaged in a holy war against ALL of ISLAM that doesn't help us tap into the vital resources that Muslim are in combating terrorism. That is not including how Islam fits into the grand scheme of the global order. There are over 1 billion Muslims around the world. ISIL represents about 20 thousand of them. How can a group like that claim to speak for all of Islam and their so-called Islamic State which is roughly the size of Indiana. So No, the President is not "defending Islam's images. The folks like Bill Maher and Sam Harris don't have the responsibility of maintaining a global order, nor do they have the responsibility of being President. It is easy to pontificate from a TV Studio or from a New York Times Bestseller list. There is nothing cowardice about the President and his ruthlessness in combating terrorist. Ask bin Laden. But if you think by any means that alienating 1 billion muslims outside the United Stats is going to do us any service in the grand scheme of combatting terrorism you are grossly mistaken. Just like the IDIOT Donald Trump.
     
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  2. alton

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    The thing with Trump is he's so f#$kin stupid. He may have his own "personal" view of the "Terrorist Threat" and what he wants to do about it, but he doesn't realize he's just being used like a puppet in this whole thing by muhf#kaz bigger than him to arrive at whatever end goal they have in mind. Kinda like how gangs {used to} use to recruit kids to carry their guns so they themselves didn't get locked up when the cops frisked them. I honestly believe ALLLL those political figures (both Left AND Right) are laughin' at him behind his back. Like the kid with the "Kick Me" sign on his back.
     
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  3. alton

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    Im no fan of the president (nor his predecessors) but....
    [​IMG]
     
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  4. ColumbusGuy

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    Even my 83 year old Xian(the less abhorrent kind, you know who try to think 'what would Jesus do' and who are more live and let live) mother can see through Trump. She even said to me (roughly)...'It would not be really that bad if 'something happened' to Trump before the election'. I was all, MOM!!!???
    cpnoway...then.... :bronbad:
     
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  5. Omega Level

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    Beyond Beyond Beyond sad. Although it may not seem like it, ignorance, hate, bigotry, and all negative emotions will NEVER win. Those who have that view either shared or hidden will ALWAYS answer for it. Its impossible not to. I don't worry about ISIS. Is it a cause for concern? Yes, perhaps. And action needs to be taken indeed. But the wrath that they are bringing upon themselves is so monumental, its ultimately bigger than we can ever imagine.

    My main comment about this is GUN (fvckin) CONTROL. Im soon embarrassed to be American at times, hell most of the time, when it comes to our policies on guns. WHAT THE HELL, do any american citizen need to purchase assault rifles for? Thats not for hunting. Thats not for break in's. I mean seriously. The fact that I can be neighbors with someones who has machine guns, automatic rifles, boggles my mind.

    If we are soo adament about the right to bear arms, we should have 2 choices for non-military citizens and both are hand guns. And all rifles are for military and law enforcement ONLY. And that is ONLY given to them during terror events or war.

    IM JUST SOOOO DONE WITH THIS GUN SHYT
     
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  6. Winston Smith

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    On another thread I stated how bad this would be for dating, app-wise, for Muslims and Southwest Asians (what we call Middle Easterners), I would never paint a broad bush, plus you're grown and intelligent you know how to handle your biz. I have a love-hate for Maher's position. He's right in pointing out the cowardice of the American left, but wrong in saying, "they're all like that." I recognize that Maher is partially motivated because he's half-Jewish, so whether he admits to it or not, he's bringing the whole Israel-Palestine argument to everything he exhorts.

    Personally, I had a wonderful time in Kuwait during my Iraq service and even got to meet some officials who extended an invite to meet up with them at, yes, HARD ROCK CAFE in Kuwait City (my command wouldn't let me go). Our unit bought parts from them and I remember the hospitality they extended each time we went to pick up an order. They sincerely seemed like wanted to do business with Americans, and they generally were more accepting of Blacks than Saudis and others (I think they considered black males at the time to be the epitome of cutting edge cool as we seemed to be on a lot of cell phone and technology billboards I saw along their highways). So, while we should be vigilant against religious madness, we can't be so rigid that we don't recognize there aren't sincere NON-crazy religious folk who are trying to work things out like all the rest of us.

    Hope things go well with you and Arab dude, if that's what you want. What gets lost in all this is that there is no one version of Islam than there is Judaism, Protestantism, etc. Hell, many of my favorite and greatest jazz minds were Muslim (McCoy Tyner, Ahmad Jamal, etc.). I dealt with a lot of Sufis and Ahmadiyas growing up, who catch a lot of shit from "mainstream" Muslims. Even that whole "don't draw Mohamed" thing is one particular interpretation of one sect. The Iranians, for example, would generally have no problem with an epic, big budget film of Mohamed, if it were respectful of their messiah akin to how Mel Gibson did "The Passion of Christ."
     
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  7. Winston Smith

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    I likes your Mom, lol, she's gone to the top of the Christmas list!
     
  8. Cyrus-Brooks

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    Also talking about the vicious and brutal nature of Islam doesn't fit the western liberal narrative of the white, Christian, patriarchy as the bad guy. They (American and western European lefties) are not informed about history. Arab Muslims invaded north Africa, and enslaved countless Africans way before white Christians got a piece of the action and continued doing so long after Europeans stopped. That too doesn't fit the narrative. When you point this out people, even other black people will accuse you of being "racist," "islamophobic," or anti Arab. They also ignore the fact Muslims from South Asia and the Arab world are often just as rabidly racist again black people as white supremacists. Yet they cynically use the language of civil rights, and cry racism when it suits them to gain sympathy from American blacks and most fall for it like dummies and rush to their defense.
     
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  9. ColumbusGuy

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    There was another terror attack in France that just happened. A man killed a policeman by stabbing him to death, and then slaughtered the man's wife with a knife, in front of the couple's 3 year old child. He posted a video before the police stormed in and killed him, and before he killed the child. He does not represent all muslims, or most muslims of course-but he is the face of muslim terrorism. He is pretty calm for just having butchered two people and with killing a 3 year old still coming up(or so he thought). Here is part of the video:



    The whole video was worse. This is what we have to deal with-just a few of these can cause so much havoc. And there is no reasoning with this. There is just no reasoning to be done. They only try to bargain with them(IMO) to buy time so they can plan an assault. And the vast majority of muslims who are sane will not speak out, because they are in circumstances that place them in much greater danger than any of us. No wonder they are (mostly) silent...who wants this visiting them at midnight with a knife?
     
  10. Winston Smith

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    I didn't say he was "soft on terrorism" (whatever the hell that means) nor did I use the word "cowardice" for him, but for liberals in general (of which, I am one). My point was that, at first blush, he made it all about defending Islam more than honoring and defending dead and wounded LGBTQ victims. Whether you want to face it or not, there is going to be a lot of future situations where gay and black people are going to wince when they are told that their human dignity and respect have to take a back seat to the alleged grievances of Muslims, just because Beltway eggheads (both parties) deem it necessarily. Out of fairness, the president is going to Orlando at the end of the week, and perhaps he prefers to deal with the families personally rather than over the podium.

    I supported the President's campaigns financially as well as electorally. That doesn't mean that I have to worship the ground he walks on or uncritically accept every move he makes. It appears you took criticism of his statements as accusing him personally possessing "cowardice." Far from it. However, I don't need to list a body count in those moments when I want to defend the president's foreign policy. Your description of the president "having terrorist blood on his hands" sounds like Republicans defending Cheney and Bush during OIF/OEF ("He's a REAL HE-MAN!! He HOITS PEEPLE!!!"). That need for expressed verbalized masculinity tends to make my eyes roll as a vet, much like all the empty, neocon bravado huffed by all the draft-dodging, GOP "Chairborne Rangers" like Cheney, Limbaugh, Hannity, Ryan, Trump, et al.

    Personally, I'm sick of hearing about so called Muslim woes. I'd rather concentrate on the President's foreign work that I actually care about such as normalizing relations with Cuba; reaching out to the Pope and Latin America; trade with India, China and Southeast Asians. That's my Obama. worrying about what a billion Muslims think? Yawn....there's twice as many Indians and Chinese on the planet and most of them aren't Muslim.

    Finally, I have to ask just for shits and giggles, should Trump become president, are you going to resign your position? Or would you be like all my right-wing, Republican colleagues in law enforcement who, after he became their boss in 2009, complained and groused about Obama but still managed to find the time and ability to look the other way on payday and snatch that Federal paycheck? Government workers always find bipartisanship when it comes to their wallets lol.
     
  11. ColumbusGuy

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    You are right...I forgot all about North Africa. Forgot that some of Europe was muslim too. They got all the way to the gates of Vienna. I knew it, but just did not think of it. I would quality as at least party leftist...
     
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  12. ColumbusGuy

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    Well she just called and I reminded her of what she said and she retracted it. Said it would make her as bad as him. oh well.:yeshrug:

    when is ^^ he going to act up again?
     
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  13. Winston Smith

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    Still a class act, all around!

    There was a good segment on PBS Newshour tonight about this, if you can find it, focusing on the Hofferesque elements I always talk about. A lot of this stems from the same things that radicalize most young males: lack of job and educational opportunities, frustrations in education, feelings from powerlessness, lack of sexual outlets (in Islam, not having enough materially to take on a wife and be a breadwinner)...and clueless frigging parents.

    "No thugs in our house
    Are there, dear?
    We made that clear,
    We made little Graham
    promise us he'd be a good boy..."
     
  14. BlackguyExecutive

    BlackguyExecutive Je suis diplomate
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    I will entertain your last point in a hypothetical. I am a commissioned by the United States to protect and defend the constitution of the United States. I serve at the direction of the President and his or her policy positions and decisions. My main goal is to protect Americans abroad and advance America's interests throughout the world. I do this because I have an expertise in areas where I can certainly make a difference. I don't know what I would do if Trump became President, it would truly depend on his policy direction. I serve America, Not a particular president or political party. In many ways diplomats operate above politics. With that being said, there is a history of diplomats consciously objecting (i.e., War on Terrorism, or War in Iraq). If I ever feel that my oath to protect and defend the constitution will become compromised I would resign. With that being said, I think we need people like me and my colleagues to be at the decision making table to offer our expertise and direct understanding of the complexities of the international system (in my case culture and political negotiation). I think we need people like myself to say hey wait, this is a mistake or we should do this because of this that and the other. So, I can't say that I would necessarily resign if a Trump is elected because president only serve four years, the United States will be around long after a President Trump leaves office.

    It is my hope that he is not elected because I think he would be really bad for the United States.
     
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  15. ColumbusGuy

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    ok. Hoffer. Had to google I admit.

    You could have made that into a real Haiku.
     
    #50 ColumbusGuy, Jun 15, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2016
  16. Winston Smith

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    Fair enough. Lol. That probably came off more snarky in text than I intended. That's good to hear. That's exactly the attitude I had in the military and my current position (I won't mention the agency I work for, as we're always in the news due to stupid partisan politics). That's why when I hear people say, "if so and so is elected, I'm leaving this country," I just give them the implied face palm look. Did I want to be in Iraq? Hell no. Did I think George W. Bush was a fukking moron with no sense of historical, tactical, strategic, military or macroeconomic understanding and had no business or justification for invading Iraq? Hell yeah. But the Oath i took wasn't for him. And I always respectfully spoke my mind in the field, even to flag officers. As George Washington said, just because we put on the uniform of our country, that doesn't mean we remove the garment of our citizenry.

    And I would agree that people like you are needed at the table, I just hope folks really believe that. I love having people around me who challenge me (intelligently, of course, not belligerently). And as you see, I definitely love to challenge others,lol. My superiors know I'm not a yes man and may challenge decisions, but they will get an intelligent, thoughtful response every time. As General Patton said, if everyone is thinking the same then no one is actually thinking.
     
  17. Winston Smith

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    In short: too many frustrated young men, not enough pussy, beer and jobs.

    The last part is one of my favorite songs, "No Thugs in Our House." It's an 80s song about a British couple that are totally oblivious to their son being a skinhead that's beating the shit out of immigrants at night. Mateens father is like the father in that song.

    http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/xtc/nothugsinourhouse.html

    Carry on, my wayward son...
     
    #52 Winston Smith, Jun 15, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2016
  18. Cyrus-Brooks

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    I agree with certain left leaning ideas like about how the poor and working class are exploited and oppressed by the rich. But I'm not not chained to that ideology. For example I don't agree with most leftists when it comes to gun control, immigration, or Islam.
     
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  19. ColumbusGuy

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    I believe we need to strictly control these assault type weapons and have better screening for getting guns, etc. but banning them or restricting them too severely will result in a prohibition-like thing were a whole new crime network involving guns will form(just like with alcohol and drugs, etc) and we will have a new crime wave from it. Plus it just will not work here. I am already shunned by most 'leftists' because I support the right for Israel to exist-which means I am some kind of demon apparently.

    *As a gay guy where would you rather live, Tel Aviv, or Nablus, Amman, Beirut, etc?

    Also they all need to get over this religious bullshit and just live in peace. Israel is a tiny slice really-what is it, 10,000, 15,000 square miles. The muslim/arab/whatever world has at least several million square miles, they have Mecca and Medina, etc. ...just let go this little tiny area and get on with it. The Jews are there now, accept it and get on with it. They are not going anywhere. Israel has several hundred nuclear weapons and if they are being 'pushed into the sea' they will damn sure use them on Arab targets. I have been battling with other liberal 'Palestinians can do no wrong/Israelis are demons' types for nearly 35 years.
     
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  20. Winston Smith

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    Fist-bump. It's especially rough to be independent minded and iconoclastic with other black people, we're so gapddamned collectivistic (does melanin make people more inclined to statist and socialistic stupidity?). My take on immigration is a combination of law enforcement pragmatism (real background checks, better follow up on those who overstay, changing reporting requirements for those who enter without inspection, a vastly more punitive worksite enforcement apparatus); and the market, i.e. a guest worker program instead of this nod-nod, wink-wink shit where we let people in illegally and look the other way so corporate America can get cheap labor. Then, when the political winds blow the wrong way, we hypocritically react and say, "oh, you're here illegally! How'd dat happen? Now you gotta go." If Dubya had actually implemented his guest program, I might then at least have one good thing to say about him.

    I tend to look at these situations more like an engineer than a pundit. For example, yes, we can, if serious implement a stricter policy to make it much harder for mentally ill people to LEGALLY obtain weapons ( reprobates will always find illegal ways to procure them). However, what the gun control people never answer is how do you deal with the EXISTING supply and presence of guns and rifles? If we totally banned the manufacture, import and sales of new firearms, there are still TENS (if not HUNDREDS) of millions of weapons in Amerca. How do you ameliorate or mitigate their presence and effect? Voluntary gun turn ins? Ha. Confiscation? Really? Not even accounting for the resistance, who is going to go door to door to find the, Ned where will the money and resources come from to locate and confiscate?

    I feel you on the Palestinian thing. Sadly, the president, like most black intellectuals and leaders, has bought into that third world mentality that claims black Americans should rubber stamp calls for solidarity in he name of some misguided "brotherhood." My uncle experienced that "same same" rap in Vietnam. They'll say it when their bacon is in the fire, but let the tide turn and they forget their newfound friendship.
     
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