Brehs, we present to you a new episode of the CYPHER AVENUE PODCAST where you’ll hear us give updates, engage in heated topic debates, interviewing interesting homosexual men of color and us verbally adding on to the articles posted on the website.
The episodes will be available in four ways: You can listen to them on the site, watch on YouTube, download a MP3 version or subscribe to us on iTunes for automatic updates!
In this podcast, Ocky Williams and Nick Delmacy join five members of Cypher Avenue to discuss the moments they accepted that they were gay or bisexual, Coming out stories, the lack of black gay/bisexual role models they can relate to, the burden of being masculine gay men and the overwhelming flamboyant stereotypes of gay men in the media.
Cypher Avenue Guests of the Podcast Include:
22 YEARS OLD
31 YEARS OLD
28 YEARS OLD
37 YEARS OLD
23 YEARS OLD
MP3 VERSION:
DOWNLOAD LINK:
This came out really great! And to think I was really nervous about it initially…It was a lot of fun being a part of this, and I really enjoyed meeting everyone. I’d love to participate in another one at some point.
A big thank you for joining us! You were great. Nice hearing voices and different POV.
Yeah man,you did real great.
I’m still in awe of all the guys on the podcast. It was such an intelligent group of men with so much in common. I’m honored to have been apart of the roundtable. We need more of this in the community.
I really enjoyed listening to the stories of the other men as well as sharing my own.There was a lot we could relate to between one another.This was really fun.
It was interesting how much our stories intersected, we really could relate to each other in a lot of ways.
I’m gonna get one of these podcasts one day. I got some things to say as well but I’m loving the dialog between the fellas.
This podcast was everything I needed. Thanks for sharing your stories guys. It helps someone that’s still going through it at 24 feel like he can keep going.
One of the things I like that you all discussed is how for the last couple of hours that you all have discussed how important gay masculine representation is needed. However, the big question is who will put themselves out there on YouTube or some other media outlet to make themselves visible? Cypher Avenue has definitely helped me and a lot of other gay black men no lie. What’s your take on that @nick @ocky @thatguy, @sb3000, @lightningrt, @swagjack, @lamontbaldwin?
I was honored to be apart of this podcast forreal. I completely agree with you, and there needs to be more visible masculine gay man in the community. It’s the reason I chose to use my real name and picture on this site. I think it would be dope to do a weekly recorded( or not ) Cypher Ave Google Hangout for the site.
Man,you’re on to something with that Hangout idea.Founders and members,we should totally schedule one of these.
I’m in bro
While we definitely need people to be out there on youtube, tv, etc. to represent more masculine black gay men, I think that for most people just having some personal visibility outside of your family and friends makes a substantial impact. For me, right now I’m pretty fulfilled by my volunteer work in LGBT healthcare and outreach, and in education (I teach as well). Thats how I provide my interpersonal visibility, at least for right now. I would like to start a youtube channel around LGBT healthcare at some point though, as its such an important issue that’s overlooked so often. Granted, healthcare isn’t the most entertaining of topics, but in a forum like youtube it definitely provides important visibility.
That’s an amazing idea for a YouTube channel. Whenever I truly come out then I would be completely comfortable doing that because I am pursuing a career in the medical field.
Oh wow, good to hear! I’ve always felt like we need more gbt men of color in the medical field, especially since our community is so disproportionately affected by various health issues (especially HIV and STIs).
I concur dude for real.
Great podcast, I really like hearing everyones different experiences. I wish we had more opportunities where gay dudes with different POV could get up in person and have these types of (civil) conversations like people do with book clubs and such (might have to start one in NYC lol). Definitely have to participate in a podcast one day.
Damn yo. I love these PODCasts. Maybe I’ll “apply” to get on the next Round Table. LOL I definitely feel all of yous on the section where yous spoke about being on a different page from most of the people around you, either now or in your growin up days. For me music-wise, growing up I’ve always listened to all dif types of music whereas dudes I went to school with were strictly Hip-Hop. I mean, for me it worked I guess, since I could relate with them on that (hip hop)level, but the relation wasn’t reciprocated since they couldn’t get with my listenin’ to what they called “white people music”. Even now, I’m a big 70′ & 80’s music fan, in addition to Hip-Hop, R&B, Spanish, Alternative, Caribbean, etc and some dudes give me the side eye. But that could just be a generational thing more so than gay/str8.
As far as sports goes, I really could give less than two f#$ks about it. LOL I like to PLAY sports (football & soccer mainly) but to watch it on tv or follow the players, shit bores the hell outta me.
My homosexuality as it relates to the people around me, almost everybody knows. With coworkers, the few that know me, I assume they know. The few chicks Im close to that know are cool. The others Im not close to, it VISIBLY pisses them off. One chick looks at me with disgust because she was initially introduced to me with the intent that we’de I guess, hit it off. WRONG!
Sadly, Im not close to any dudes here. I feel because they don’t know how to “take” me. Like, in my job, the effeminate (white, white assimilated, & white other) dudes are accepted. I don’t know of any other masc gay dudes here so I can’t speak on them, but for me, dudes shun me. It could be a combo of the “gay” factor and also a color factor. One coworker (that I’ve mentioned before) whom was initially mad cool with me until I revealed my sexuality, has limited contact with me down to an occasional smoke break, however other “white” gay dudes that are obviously gay or at the very least, suspect, he converses with on the regular. Another coworker I take the train with a lot, I suggested we workout together 1-2 days week since we hit the same gym. “Yeah, that sounds kool” and yet nothing. It’s like outside of work these kats want nothing 2 do with me, but THEY all chill 2gether after work hours. Just annoys me ’cause I’de like to chat with a dude about shit. I get a lil tired of hearin women’s issues everyday, but it is what…
‘Just annoys me ’cause I’de like to chat with a dude about shit. I get a lil tired of hearin women’s issues everyday, but it is what…’
hmmm
What’s the…”Hmmmm” for, my dude?
Bbbut why not? You are GAY after all!!!
(SARCASM).
LOL. I’ve never been one to want to be surrounded by chicks. Other than the fact that (in most cases) we both like dudes, I have nothing in common with them. But for some reason they gravitate to me (just like kids for some odd reason. I don’t really like them, but they love me) Feel like I wearing “Dude Repellent” sometimes. LOL
Just pointing out that that’s what we’re doin out here. CA has lead to many guys having a beer n kickin it w like minded guys.
Eh…true, I suppose. For me it would be kool to be able to do the same, but with someone from my workplace. These are dudes I’ve been chit chatting with for years, but whatever. If it ain’t happened by now it ain’t gonna happen LOL
I would definitely encourage you to join in the next time the opportunity is available man. It felt like I was talking to my radio at first,but it was undeniably fun to talk directly to other members of the site.
Re: Gay Men In RL Today Versus 20 Years Ago
Now that I’m older and have some “gaydar” or at least know what some tells are, even if I teleported my 16 year old self to 2014, the situation would be the same. I would clearly see who the Miss Lawrences and Derrick J.s of the world, but I’d probably totally miss the guys who were gay and masculine just due to me not knowing what to look for. Gay guys you see on YouTube probably would be my clue. Like Nick said, I could NEVER related to the ‘sweet’ gays because I never felt like I was them. It’s really confusing when you don’t have role models. Like Dre, I’m originally from Mississippi too and it’s not like guys like me don’t exist, it’s just that we don’t see each other. I’m glad Michael Sam and to a degree, Don Lemons are here but I would feel too distanced from them too because, while they are real people, my 16 year old self would never be able to talk to them for advice or mentorship. However, I do have to concede on the points about some characters like Spin City, Will and Grace, and 6 Feet. Unfortunately, all of those shows have run their course so it’s easy to forget about them. Good points there.
Re: Gay Character’s Personal Lives
It’s so funny how plain and vanilla my life is and how much it parallels to any single male in my age group. I don’t party. I don’t go out. I don’t have a mile long list of past sexual partners. Everything is not all fun and games like most TV shows would lead you to think of gay men. On the point about how gay men are seen as having sex or man hungry (or is it thirsty these days) whenever their female friends are around and a ‘fine’ looking man comes in and the gay character pounces, I really hate when that happens. It’s really frustrating. Or the gay character always comments about his latest sexual conquest the night before. Yeah, there are some gay men who live like that but that’s not representative of me.
I felt that Queer As Folk resonated with me more than Noah’s Arc. Even with its white affluence, unrealistic portrayal of Brian’s relationships and partying, it was more believable than Noah falling in love with and maintaining a relationship with a guy who Noah was his first. Not that it hasn’t happened ever, but it doesn’t happen like that in a landslide majority. I just felt it like played into to most fem gay’s desire to find some hunk of masculine straight man and ‘turn him out’.
Great podcast, yet again!
“I just felt it like played into to most fem gay’s desire to find some hunk of masculine straight man and ‘turn him out’.”
Well you now,a lot of guys call masculine men “trade”. One guy got irritated when I missed one of his texts and kept insinuating I had a girlfriend and was dl,even though I’ve never touched a woman in my life.
Uh oh! Sounds like one of those ‘we exchanged numbers and we’s marriedt naw!’ types. lol
and he actually tried to act hurt when I didn”t wanna talk to him anymore.Guess I’m a dl bastard.
You heartbreaker, you.
Great podcast. Good to have a mixture of different points of views that I actually can relate to. Kudus for Nick and Ocky for putting this together(smart).
Great experience. Thanks to @nick n @ocky for having me. It was def good times.
I really enjoyed this episode.
It was good hearing about different lives and perspectives. I love hearing coming out stories.
I especially enjoyed ROD!’s approach and tone of voice.
I have a question. Throwing it out to anyone. What exactly is wrong with feminine gay visibility? One could argue that this visibility has been impactful in the progressive acceptance of gays. If masculine gay guys want to blend in and don’t want to stand out, is this helpful for visibility? Is a don’t ask don’t tell philosophy helpful for visibility? It seems invisible by definition. But what are your thoughts?
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with feminine visibility. I just think there should be a balance between the two. I like seeing all areas of the spectrum personally. This is the same topic to me as how black people and which black people are portrayed in media. The media is going to promote what’s profitable and comfortable for them.
Thanks for your response.
One could argue that such balance exists. For every Rupaul there’s a Six Feet Under. Noah’s Arc coexists with DL Chronicles. And so on.
What is needed that isn’t already out there?
RuPaul has been a celebrity for years whereas Six Feet Under came and went.The DL chronicles is only online and known by fewer people,but anyone who channel surfs has been exposed to Noach’s Arc.
There’s an attempt to balance things out but you can definitely say one side receives more exposure than the other. For example,I’m sure more people are aware of Lafayette on True Blood than they are of Holt from Brooklyn Nine Nine.
Dre G. said it all l
Who would you say is responsible for this?
I don’t know much about Rupaul myself but its safe to say he pursued the industry and chose to revel in his flamboyance. The only reason he has a show now is because there is a market. People are watching it. People desire it. It is not simply people pushing it because they want to overshadow masculinity.
Noah’s Arc was on everyday tv? I thought it was on Logo only just like DL was on Here TV.
Are you saying feminine gay characters are being pushed more than masculine ones?
Brooklyn 99 is a newer show than True Blood. It is also a less popular show I believe. Hence less visibility. People probably know more about Michael Sam (which I presume is allowed in the masculine camp).
Ok,I dont have Here tv so I was unaware on that point.
I wouldn’t so much say that RuPaul types (a phrase I will use for the simplicity of conversation) are being pushed to overshadow Masculine types,but I think the reason we see more of the RuPaul types is because it’s more consistent with the average person’s conception of a gay man.
And that was a fair point about the Lafayette/Holt example.I have to say,it is consistent with what I said about RuPaul’s longevity contributing to his exposure.
Is it possible that feminine gays are more okay with being visible? Perhaps they even chase the limelight more?
As a side note I wonder how useful the masculine-feminine dichotomy can be. Would you consider Tariq from LA Complex to be masculine or feminine?
I would actually consider him to be masculine.
I totally agree.
I think feminine men are more noticeable without any effort.So if someone sees a feminine guy or a group of fem guys together, they will immediately presume them to be gay. Same for a guy who’s into things that are commonly attricuted to gay men (drag, Divas,etc).
But if a guy is masculine and gay you won’t know it on sight unless he’s with his partner or you bring it up with him.So I think when the fem guys are the ones you(straight people) automatically know are gay without any inquiry that becomes your(their) idea of gay.
Is the association inevitable then?
Historically gay men have been seen as less than men, as threats to masculinity. This may have to do with the devaluation of femininity and the equation of “lying with a man” with feminine behaviour.
I wonder if there are statistics on if the majority of gay men act in a feminine manner. Such a study may never be thorough as some representative samples may never be reached.
All this being said, I do believe that in 2014, most people don’t have a problem accepting a masculine man as gay.
The “inevitable” association is the whole issue.A guy can be as fem as he truly is ,we just don’t like it being the default face of gay men.
And people will accept a masc man being gay,but they will either be too shocked about it,or they will think he’s faking his persona.
I think the concept of “Masculine Gay Man” is still threatening to so many.
From what I understand from reading black women talk/write about “manly” gay men, they assume most of them are DL. They’ll do the typical ‘what a waste’ if the guy is reasonably attractive. It’s some hating azz ladies who ovaries are burning over Michael Sam. They hate that they can’t have a man who is muscular and defined, looks good and doesn’t mind showing off his body as stereotypically in shape gay men do. And if he’s manly enough, they will try to ‘change’ him.
I think straight men feel threatened because they would never really know if their home boy was gay or not unless they told them. “Could the muscle bound dude in the gym who’s super swole be gay? Is that dude gonna try to pin me down and rape me?” or “Steve is gay? Man, I wonder if that dude was checking out my booty in the locker room, ian down wit dat gay sh!t.”
Steve was checking out your ass tho. lol
Anyway, some of them tend to feel/think they are much stronger than a weaker gay man so they don’t feel a threat from them because in their minds, they’ll ‘whoop that punk’s ass if he ever makes a pass at me’.
Anything that would compromise or could be viewed as a threat to some straight men’s manhood can cause them to over react to simple stuff. When all a straight man has to do is treat a homosexual pass as they would a female they don’t find attractive. The main difference though is that unattractive females still have vaginas so if that’s all they want, there’s the option. lol But if the gay man is still pushy after he’s clearly said “no thanks” IMO, No Means No. So if Latrell get’s a beat down, oh well. He was told to leave that dude alone.
I’ll use RHOA example from last season when Apollo hit Branden as an example of Straight V Gay Man fighting. I think the way Apollo beat that dude down, that he had some kind of prison flash back. I watched the incident a few times and to me, Apollo used a lot more force than needed when he was already clearly stronger than Branden, why did he have to go so hard on him? He broke a rib.
So if a straight guy feels threats from a softer guy (“Don’t be looking at my dick, yo, WTF?”)I would think the reaction would be even more intense from a man who’s just as masculine, or more, than he.
“Which I presume is allowed in the masculine camp” made me laugh
Lol how come?
btw i think I sat up a little bit straighter everytime @lightningrt talked . He brought some extra sophistication to us negros chit chatting lol.
Lmao! That might be the professor in me, gotta put a little extra bass in there with some of the students 😛
Thanks man! It’s funny, I’m always a little nervous when speaking in new forums like this. I really loved talking with the other guys, I think they helped me come out of my shell a bit.
As for feminine visibility, I think that it can be a great thing to have well developed complex feminine characters. I actually thought that Kurt on Glee did this pretty well, where they explored a lot of different issues that we in the LGBT community face. But the problem is that most feminine characters aren’t written in a complex way, they’re one-off jokes that exist solely for their flamboyance. So when people who are relatively unknowledgable about the gay community see these characters, they just think that all gay men are sassy neck-poppin queens, and nothing else. If anything, I find that while masculine gbt men have a lack of visibility, feminine men, while very visible, just arent portrayed with much accuracy or remotely any depth (except in rare instances).
Thanks for the response.
Wow, you sounded extremely comfortable. It makes sense to find out that you’re an educator. What subject do you teach?
Scripted media made for entertainment purposes can be a very fickle medium. Writers have to ask themselves what is entertaining to the viewers. And the answers can be tricky.
I think the real problematic instance of gay characters is when they are portrayed as lecherous beings. I remember there was a gay hairdresser in the movie Soul Food that rubbed me the wrong way. Same thing as the use of a gay character in Why Did I Get Married. These instances seem to me to be tools – an exploitative tools.
That being said, the DL character to which a lot of masculine gays relate to can be equally problematic. In fact, DL is simply just another racialized label that demonizes Black behaviour. It has become an unfortunate trope. Non-Black characters get to be closeted while we are just the big, bad Blacks. The gay brother in Six Feet Under wasn’t DL, he was closeted. There is an element of empathy missing.
Which other gay characters – fem, masc or otherwise – do you feel are well-written?
I teach medical microbiology and some infectious disease courses. I also teach some sex education classes, both to heterosexual and LGBT youth (In fact, I’d love to create a sexual risk behavior course at the university level once I finish my PhD).
And I agree with you on the fem characters, the problem is at its worst when they become nothing more than a negative trope (e.g. lecherous, predatory, or at worst a pedophile). And don’t get me started on the DL label lol, I could talk for hours on end about how it was initially a fictitious creation of the mainstream media and heterosexual culture, even though many within our community are using it to identify as discrete (how successful this is is up for debate).
The funny thing is, you can use typically negative streotypes in gay men to help make a character more complex and provide opportunities for development. As much issue as I take with how some of the characters on Noah’s Arc were written, I think Ricky was exceptionally well done. Now at a superficial glance he’s just a promiscuous stereotype, but I think the show did a really good job showing the gradual cracks in that facade (especially with his connections with Junito and Noah), and how they come to a breaking point towards the end. He undergoes more development than anyone else in the cast in my opinion. Omar from the Wire is another example I like, in that him being so out helps to contribute to his image as a badass (he couldn’t care less who knows, even his enemies). With Omar because he’s so open the narrative around his sexuality is completely different and much more nuanced than what we typically see.
Get it, papi! I definitely respect your work. And all the best on your doctorate.
Ah, Noah’s Arc. I don’t care what anybody says. I enjoyed that show! Lol. Especially as a young gay. I definitely agree with your analyses of Ricky and Omar. Omar was so well done that sometimes I don’t even remember that he was gay. It was simultaneously powerful and inconsequential to his character. He wasn’t “the gay guy” he was Omar.
Also, can we shout out how cute Lamont @lamontbaldwin is?
I was just thinking he is a very attractive dude…
Yeah, he’s a good looking dude. I see a few icons on here with some handsome faces, just never mention anything because I don’t know who’s are real and who’s are just some random star/singer/etc that I just don’t know of. Like Nick’s, for example LOL
He is..but I’m mad nobody said my pic was cute…
This is how I imagine @sb3000 looking:
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Lol..he got me beat on the cuts..but ur not far off from my ‘look’ lol…n stop playin, I know you’ve seen my real pic b4 negro
No offense taken that u forgot what I look like. I know u left that image on the side of the road somewhere w all of the other non 20something, masculine, tall dudes lol
Now that you mention it I do remember you had your pic as your profile photo at one point. That was awhile ago. But to be honest, I don’t pay attention to face pics on here. I like the weird photos that display personality more. I chuckle every time I see @hannibal‘s Kermit pic in the Activity Stream, smh
Dolvett Quince.
Ugh… I hate that I think he’s so hot. I hate his attitude on TBL but I can’t deny he. Is. Fine.
Ain’t he!? And I’ve seen photographic evidence that he even has pretty feet..(don’t judge me) lol
Ultimately, I think we must realize that feminine, flamboyant, out-there – whatever you want to call it – gays are not the enemy.
We are all in this together.
Great Podcast guys…. Big shout out to @thatguy and @lamontbaldwin for holding it down for the young guys on the avenue you guys represent well!
I really appreciate the work you guys do and the camaraderie we have on the site. Keep it up. I look forward to the next one!
Gracias
Thanks a lot bro.
Yet another GREAT podcast. Special shoutout to @swagjack, @ockywilliams and @nick for representing for our age group (as I’m 35). I would love to be able to be on a panel for a future podcast as it was mad refreshing to hear non-overtly hyper masculine brothers come together to talk about issues that didn’t necessarily have to do with who was sleeping with who, sexual positions, or any of the other bs that you hear about as it relates to sexuality and people of color. Thanx again guys and hope to hear from many of you soon – I would love to have more dialogue as conversations like these should not stop with one or two podcasts.
Also shout out to @lamontbaldwin, @thatguy, @Rod!, and my boy @SB3000, for representing as well. You all seem mad kool and your articulate yet passionate points of view were a welcomed addition to the podcast!
This was a great podcast. I loved ever minute of it. Keep it up Cypher Avenue
I really loved this podcast. It was my first one,not my first time on the site,had to go back and listen to previous ones. On the issue of gay representation in the media for me,even though they are a white cast, i think i really LOVE ”Looking” on HBO. I think they reflect me. They are just ”boring” guys living their lives not into the parties,scenes,cruises,parades,drugs,or circuit festivals. I grew up in Nigeria and my attraction to men was all the masculine guys around me. It was hard to see effeminate men around or even masculine gay guys to look up to. So the ”mold” for my attraction was the masculine straight male. I never saw tv shows like ”Will and Grace” or ”Queer eye” but I did see ”Six foot Under” and really got in to the gay cop (can’t remember his name) but now coming in contact with effeminate gay men,drag queens,and trans men I just tend to appreciate them and glad that we have all found a place to exist freely in the world.
I concur with your Dante. I didn’t grow up in Nigeria but as a Nigerian I can definitely relate.
The Youtube guy you were talking about is Jacob Kohinoor here’s his channel he’s pretty good
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8ppRsgjSe0jwWpxqPWK3YQ
I’d definitely like to partake in one of these podcast with you guys
I loved this podcast. Me not being masculine but not too feminine either, I really enjoyed that I kinda related to some of these dudes. I didn’t start getting into ‘experiencing’ the gay lifestyle or getting to know more gay people until I came out to my uncles and cousins last year (at 26). Even though they were okay with me, they’re still homophobic. They’ve been saying gay slurs over the years and my mom being a Christian don’t made it better. And I can also relate that the only black gay people we see on TV are the stereotypical feminine ones. So I can relate on that level. I know I’m late at this but I don’t care. I’m making up for not joining this website before two months ago.