Cypher Ave’s has always encouraged our social media better-half The Boards to be a place that Black non-heterosexual men could have an outlet to say the things they can’t say and express feelings they can’t on their mainstream feeds. From politics, culture, sex; we say what we feel. Mainstay fixture, member RolandG always initiates and participates in controversial discussions, which is why I gained permission before I posted his new thread from The Boards below.
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So I’m setting the scene here.
I was with a group of guys yesterday eating and drinking. Well they were drinking mostly and I was eating. The group consisted of two black guys, including myself, and i believe four white guys. During a conversation about dating apps and the most annoying things we encounter on them from other gay men, one of the guys mentioned he gets tired of reading the ignorance of other gay guys who don’t understand that U=U(Undetectable=Untransmittable and that more needs to be done to prevent the stigma of gay men living with HIV and AIDS. Now, I’m 40 years old and have never had an STI and my sexual count is pretty low for a gay man my age but there is one thing I do know and that is I do not want to engage in sexual activity with someone who has any kind of STI. I mentioned this after being asked why I was so quiet and all hell broke loose. I believe I was called, ignorant, not well read and I think I might have been called a closet homophobe too. All this because, despite the medical science and studies, I still chose not to engage in sex with someone who is known to have tested positive for HIV. I mentioned the racial component of the group earlier only because it appeared that it was the white guys who seemed most offended by this viewpoint. The entire evening turned into one of the most frustrating conversations I’ve ever tried to have with other gay folk.
Listen, there is a stigma surrounding HIV and AIDS and I won’t dispute it but lately, I feel like the gay community is working overtime trying to normalize the disease to a fault. These are still diseases that are killing people everyday and causing health problems for others. No matter how it’s spun in the gay press, HIV/AIDS is not the common cold or a little indigestion. These are infections that require medication that can also wreak havoc on the body. But now, I’m part of the problem simply because I say I don’t care to engage in sex with a positive person? How is that spreading or perpetuating a stigma? I’ve seen online profiles that say things like, “If you don’t know that U=U then girl bye” and “if you’re too ignorant to know that you can’t catch HIV from an undetectable person, you’re too dumb to even meet me.” For example, check out this article from Queerty a few months back.
I mean now you can’t even object to filming raw porn with a positive person without being fired and accused of HIV shaming. Just read the comments. This porn actor is accused of not being smart, being from a conservative town, mouthing off his ignorance, etc. and this for only saying he didn’t want to work with someone who is HIV positive. His line of work entails fucking so he has a point and a right to refuse who he wants. He didn’t say he didn’t want to work with a positive person side-by-side at the Wal-Mart.
I’m always cautious with my health which is why I refuse to engage in raw sex period. I’ve even added PreP as an additional precaution. Even though PreP has been discussed as a barrier to HIV transmission, I have read reports of transmissions between people who were taking it. I guess I’m ignorant because I choose not to have raw sex while on Prep too huh? Even site co-founder OckyDub posted about this a couple of years back before we got to this hysteria.
This is one of my main complaints with the gay community as a whole and again, I have to stress the non-minority portion of the community controls the narrative and sets the moral compass. The rules stipulate that every gay person should be accepted for who they are no matter how flamboyant and ill-mannered they are. We must not have an ethnic preference for who we want to date or sleep with. Masculine men who only want masculine men are effeminophobic and now anyone who doesn’t want to engage in sexual intercourse with persons carrying STI are ignorant and perpetuate the stigma.
I left the gathering with the feeling that I wasn’t their type of guy and I’m sure I’ll never get another invitation to hang which is fine with me. I’m going to stand my ground when it comes to this foolishness. People living with STI aren’t bad people at all nor should they be discriminated against for jobs, housing, insurance and so forth but there is no way in hell that i’m going to be made to feel guilty for choosing not to have sex with them.
The PC police be damned.
I can understand how "attacked " you may have felt for in that setting you were a double minority; you are a man of color and HIV negative. I surmise that in their opinion it is attitude and posturing like yours that contribute to the shame and stigma of those who are HIV+ and undetectable. I must admit that I felt the same way about it until I got more information. HIV is more like a chronic disease, an issue with blood, than a STI,right? Gonorrhea and Syphilis can easily get cured with a shot of penicillin. Being poz is a manageable condition that is life long. Based on recent stats , it is likely that those with an active social and dating life may have unknowingly been sexual with someone who may knowingly or unknowingly be poz. Frequent testing is encouraged if that is one's move.
<!—->I'm like you, not social and by personal choice celibate for years. This is a settled comfort zone for me because of what popularly known and out there.One of my boys back home met someone whom he connected and was attracted to only after the first date the guy shared that he was HIV poz and undetectable. After receiving that news, my boy ghosted him. I place myself in that guy's shoes. That was his experience after being honest and the rejection is very painful. I know that there is responsibility with the disclosure just as the response can be as telling. You felt bullied by expressing your opinion maybe your counterparts in that group shared their pain. #imjustsayin Two sides to every coin.
Well for Black non heterosexual men, HIV is becoming normal.
A large section of gay Black men have it. Excluding them cuts one off from a large population even before you get into the intricacies of mutual attraction and chemistry. As long as people are aware of that and okay with that then I don't see any problem if negative people still don't want to date these men.
Why force it? If someone says they don't want to date/have sex with you because you're White,Black, hiv positive, hiv negative [saw that on FB this week], fat, formerly female, fat, 10 inches, 2 ijxhea6, uncut, republican, Old, young, got kids, skinny, etc do these people really think shaming them will work effectively?
It's rejection.
We all do it and all experience it.
What no I one can do for me is tell me what I find important and deal breakers when I decide to get to know them or not romantically or sexually.
For the record, I'm on prep and have dated and had sex with positive men and I'm still negative. I treat everyone like they're positive and it's just made things simpler for me..I am in control of my health and do what I need to do for myself despite whatever someone says about them being negative, positive, undetectable. I know what risks I'm okay with taking and I'm good with my choices despite having an interesting yet low body count sex life for my age.
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RolandG said:
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I dapped your post because you raise a crucial point – people's preferences are their preferences – they are not endorsements nor are they shaming. Personally, my former partner, now deceased, was HIV+ and probably was when we first started our relationship – it was the mid 80s and neither of us were tested. I have subsequently had at least one affair with someone who is positive and is a very close friend.
My problem with the discussion you reported is the overall situation in which people feel entitled to judge in extreme terms others' choices. It is not as if you were writing an article (though you have posted on the situation – but I think that is a different matter). Your opinion/preference is just that – it is not a fiat. I have become tired after decades of sitting through similar conversations among my gay peers of the over-reaction, the judging. I want to say and sometimes do "who died and made you queen." When I hear the words shaming, cancel, ___phobia, I simply tune out.
I applaud your choice though I have made a different one. I also once again thank the Boards for existing and hosting discussions like this.
Okay, so before the pitchforks come out. I was abstinent for a long time. I assumed that holding your virginity was special but the other reason was STIs, STDs and beyond.
I am and have always been negative and I'm strict about sexual stuff. I've taken a risk orally but I've never had raw sex anally.
I remember this one dude said he wanted to grind his dick against my ass and I let him but I noticed that he was trying to work his way of sliding it in without protection. Session over. He got into this hissy fit about me not willing to try stuff. The last time I remember talking to him, he was coming down to visit in my home town to see me and I he started ranting about the last experience with him and then I just got tired of listening to him tell me about myself and hung up in his face and blocked his number.
I've had guys lie to me about their statuses too. If someone starts telling me some lecture about I'm ignorant or whatever, I'll probably tell them off or something, especially what I do with my own body.
I don't care if STIs can get cured by shots, I find them disgusting period. While I am not a raging nosophobe to the point it affects my daily life, I do have strong reservations about STIs and what not. I let people know immediately that I am a volunteer at HIV and STI clinics and get tested regularly. I'll ask them when was the last time they were tested or do they get tested regularly. I feel like we live in this era where folks don't gaf and when you ask them, they get offended. I wasn't even having sex and still got tested.
I've seen videos of people having sex in public bathrooms on those pissy soaked floors. They have videos like that on Pornhub or even Xtube where dudes have sex with strangers and they don't be having condoms…
It's really a personal choice that people chose but something I will never partake in.
As far as dating a guy that's undetectable…I can't really sit and lie and say I wouldn't think about turning him down. They say undetectable after a certain period means you're not infectious or whatever.
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Juan-Carlos said:
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To be honest, this statement is more of what I mean. There is an assumption that I, and other dudes like me, don't have all the information regarding undetectable. I've read all the studies and know all of the stats and with that knowledge, I still choose not to have sex with an undetectable person. It's almost as if I have to dip my peen into a raw anal orifice in order to be woke and hip to the science.
And not to beat a dead horse, but despite the improvements in medication and treatment, I think it's dangerous to start labeling HIV as just a manageable condition that is life long. People need to understand the true horrors that some go through living with this infection. These posters of gay men with fit bodies smiling and running along the beach is not always the truth.
This is an old skool CA Thread here. I have no comments but want to receive the notifications to continue following this discussion.
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RolandG said:
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I think what they and these commercials are trying to convey is that life doesn't end with HIV. Which is true but I don't think people take it seriously enough because we have meds now to manage it.
But no one gives two shits….well a smaller percentage of people don't give two shits if you're positive if you are hot. If you've got face and body and know you are undetectable you have an easier time with getting away with it because mofos will still want to fuck.
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RolandG said:
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Juan-Carlos said:
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Bro, you do know what STI stands for, right? Sexually Transmitted Infection. By definition, HIV is an STI.
ControlledXaos said:
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This is the way I look at it. Until evidence to the contrary, all these gay dudes I'm seeing available for dating/hookups are HIV+…To be honest, this is messed up to say but, this mentally helps me with rejection as well. If someone I was lusting after turns me down, I get solace in thinking, "they're probably HIV+ or have some other STD anyway. Dodged a bullet." The health and CDC numbers for Atlanta alone make this more likely to be true than not, unfortunately.
I can see people saying this way of thinking is HIV shaming, but it's all internal. And this is because it was how I was taught. Growing up I was taught that, above all else, as a young gay man I should avoid HIV. The other STIs should also be avoidable, but HIV was the MAIN one to fear because it could lead to death. Of course, things are different now, but that fear is ingrained in me.
And also (if we're having an honest discussion), something no one in this thread has mentioned is there seems to be a stereotypical look to HIV+ men living with HIV. I know that even the finest, sexiest, most athletic looking man can still be HIV+, but let's be honest, most that you see don't look like this. I won't go into descriptions, but some of you reading this will know exactly what I mean.
ControlledXaos said:
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Honestly, as someone who is also early 40s with a low body count, I was having some regrets about not having more "fun" at an early age. But I spoke to a friend and he reminded me that I not only have the means to do all of those things that I wished I had done in my youth, I am more knowledgeable about STIs so I would better protect myself now than I would have when I was younger.
Paranoia and Hypochondria were the main factors limiting my young sex life…now I no longer have that unnecessary fear of being Outed and I have less fear of STIs thanks to PreP and safe sex practices.
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Nick Delmacy said:
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I know exactly what you mean and I've gotten into trouble for pointing out the tell-tell physical features of a lot of HIV+ men. I've looked at pictures on profiles, without reading stats, and have been able to point out positive men based on things like wasting and lesions. Diseases and illnesses manifest themselves in different ways so nothing wrong with being educated on some of the signs of HIV= persons. Nothing wrong with it. Of course pointing out these obvious truths will label you a shamer.
Just about every time I go on a date and the topic of sex comes up in the natural flow of conversation, I make sure to slip in my truth, "I've never had an STD or STI." This is not meant to shame the other person if they have, merely to offer a chance for them to reveal their status or to say "ME NEITHER!" or to just go silent and/or change the subject.
In Atlanta, not a single person I've spoken to or met up with has said, "ME NEITHER!" Take that anecdotal evidence how you may.
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Nick Delmacy said:
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But do they get angry when you chose not to engage with them sexually or even continue with dating? That's the part that annoys me. It's like telling the truth obligates you to throw all of your standards out the window. I'm sure some have even accused you of being improper from bringing up statuses in conversation like that. BTW, going silent or changing the subject is a no go for me. LOL
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RolandG said:
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Being intellectually honest (and playing devil's advocate), is this any different than when people complain about Black men who only Date White men (as a preference) or the complaints about Black men preferring to date Light Skinned Men? Or the complaints about Men only wanting masculine, not feminine? How is this different from a man finding out a woman has sickle cell anemia, then immediately dumping her because he doesn't want the possibility of children having it as well?
I do get how @ControlledXaos made a convincing argument that this is just personal preference, why fight the tide? But isn't a good reason to fight the tide to push back on future discrimination for more groups? Especially when media somewhat manipulates society on what beauty, success and good health is…
Isn't it all somewhat discrimination? Especially if they are open, honest, undetectable and go out of the way to protect you?
Having situationshiped with a positive guy, he was really more concerned about him not getting even a cold. Which in turn I benefited from. We never had unprotected sex but the fact that he was trying to do everything possible to not get the slightest malady was impressive and showed me that he was being as responsible as possible and in control of his health going forward since his diagnosis. He was undetectable. On that note, I also don't agree with the guys thinking that them being undetectable means they can say they are negative. That's not the same and people have the right to be fully aware if you're getting intimate.
Anyway, honestly, I think positive guys are excellent choices because the majority of them, at least the ones who are not trying to get worse, are on their meds, have health care and informed about other conditions they may have, and are focused on self survival. The little hoe ass "Well IDC what happens now" crowd are the ones who are ruining it for the 'good' positive guys. As a negative person, I could stand to go to the doctor more myself. A positive guy is going to be at the PCP a lot more often and on top of things. These are things to consider before dismissing this group of guys altogether.
Again, I get it. If you don't want the hassle, then why bother? But, if you don't plan on having unprotected sex with them anyway, then what is the problem?
These are not hard conversations to have but they are sensitive and we are in time where Black men want to date other Black men really have to search deep to decide if this status is worth not pursuing or not with someone who all other things being equal, could be The One. We have to have these talks because we're involving other people in our lives intimately and Black men are highly affected with HIV. We just can't avoid it. Someone reading this on this board is positive. You know someone who is positive. They just have not told you.
I just say, don't be an ass when you reject these guys. People have feelings. Don't Run And Tell everybody either if they are not for you. It's not your business to tell if ya'll a'int screwing.
If you're positive, don't be defensive. Own it. Don't want to tell them yet? That's fine too. Something to the effect of "I have had an STI before but until we get to know each other better or see where this may lead, I'd let you know details as appropriate" is fair IMO. For me, I can accept that at face value because if there's not going to be an second or third date, why should I care? If things start to get intimate then we can have the conversation then.
If they push for more right after you've told them you're positive, then maybe they are not the one. You're likely not going to convince them to continue or be an HIV lecturer to them in a first date situation anyway (why even want to or waste energy on that?) but it is also not their business if you're not about to screw them either. Both of you have dodged bullets in that case.
I can understand your frustration.
There seems to be a disconnect between ending the stigma around HIV and normalizing the virus in the gay community. I think we can all agree that people shouldn't be discriminated against for having HIV. That said, we also shouldn't downplay how serious this issue is and I feel like that's what a lot HIV positive individuals on these apps tend to do.
meh…push back and retain your convictions
they survive in cliques just like the methheads and booger sugar snorters
Ehh, I've work at an HIV/AIDS agency, tested many people, and educated many people on HIV. Being safe and practicing caution is, of course, the goal. And I think a few people mentioned in some form or fashion "I just assume everyone is positive and keep myself protected." Words to live by, and a great mental attitude to keep when it comes to hookup culture.
On the other hand, it's important to understand that shyt happens. I know many of y'all are educated on the subject and have gone to great lengths to avoid HIV, as you should… But what if you get it?… Like so many other gay men, I expect you to continue living life, take your one pill a day, become undetectable, date and find love, and keep it moving.
I don't necessarily think people should be faulted for getting an STI or for getting HIV/AIDS. Sex education is severely lacking across this country and you're likely to get an STI as a gay person with little education on sex, abstinence only messaging, and easy access to sex in the form of grindr, jack'd or whatever else. So, I personally give a pass because I've worked in prevention and know how stacked the odds are. The education and caution usually comes after the STI and/or HIV is found. And that's fine too. The main thing in my way of dating is–are you purposely being risky and not giving a phuck or are you approaching this in a more mature way? And this applies whether the person has had an STI in the past or not.
After they've been educated and then still choose to be unsafe and risk others, then I'm more comfortable judging, rejecting, and dismissing folks. And I can usually get that impression on the first date.