Is rejecting hiv positive men the best safer sex strategy?

Discussion in 'Sex and Adult' started by OckyDub, Dec 1, 2015.

  1. OckyDub

    OckyDub is a Verified MemberOckyDub I gave the Loc'ness monstah about $3.50
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    What is your initial reaction after reading the statement below? At first it didn't make sense for me and I was like "this is horse shit." I had to read it twice because I had never heard this before but now I understand and it makes sense. BUT STILL wear a damn condom.
    ******************
    Is rejecting hiv-positive men the best safer sex strategy?

    We asked GMFA’s Matthew Hodson about what needs to be done in regards to educating gay men about viral load and sex with HIV-undetectable men. He told us:

    “As a safer sex strategy, it just doesn’t work. We’ve known for some years now that someone on treatment is very unlikely to pass on the virus. How unlikely? Well you’re more likely to be infected from sex using a condom with someone who isn’t on treatment than you are to be infected from sex without a condom with someone who is on treatment. So when someone says that they’re going to avoid John because he has HIV (and is on treatment), and then runs off with Jonah, whose status is unknown, they’re taking a far bigger sexual risk.

    “Avoiding sex or a relationship with someone just because they’re living with HIV isn’t a good strategy: it won’t prevent you from becoming HIV-positive, it won’t reduce the number of new infections and it contributes to an unacceptable caste system within our communities.”

    Meet the HIV-negative men who won't have sex with HIV-positive men
     
  2. Nick Delmacy

    Nick Delmacy is a Verified MemberNick Delmacy Da Architect
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    Hmmm.... I'm not buying it.... No where else is this kind of logic applied in our lives.
     
  3. OckyDub

    OckyDub is a Verified MemberOckyDub I gave the Loc'ness monstah about $3.50
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    The language from the GMFA dude is a bit off putting; however viewing this from a medical stand point it does makes sense to me.

    If you're having sex with three different guys and you're wearing condoms with all:
    *1 is positive and on treatment
    *1 is positive and is not on treatment
    *1's status is unknown but could be positive or negative

    It just makes sense your chances of contracting HIV while wearing a condom with a known HIV positive dude (who is getting treatment and viral count is low) is less than that from the others.
     
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  4. Nick Delmacy

    Nick Delmacy is a Verified MemberNick Delmacy Da Architect
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    No it doesn't. Your chances don't change at all. Your chances remain exactly the same in all three scenarios whether you know the status or not. The probability of you contracting HIV from a person whose status is unknown doesn't change if you know his results. If he's HIV negative and I don't know beforehand that he's negative, the odds of me getting HIV from him remains the same: 0%.
     
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  5. OckyDub

    OckyDub is a Verified MemberOckyDub I gave the Loc'ness monstah about $3.50
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    You're creating a narrative to fit your scenario, which has nothing to do with the scenario presented. Someone being treated for HIV will most likely remain HIV positive with undetectable viral loads and not develop AIDS. Undetectable viral loads means the person is not likely to pass on the virus to others. This is not the same for a person not being treated. Not only is there a greater chance for them to pass along the HIV virus, they also most likely will develop AIDS because of the lack of treatment.

    These two things are not the same and you have a better chance of contracting the virus from one more so than the other while wearing a condom.
     
    #5 OckyDub, Dec 1, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2015
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  6. Nick Delmacy

    Nick Delmacy is a Verified MemberNick Delmacy Da Architect
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    All of that is clear, but it was not your initial response or the scenarios presented in the article or even implied by the title of this thread itself.

    It is totally false to say that your mathematical chances of getting HIV is lower with someone who you KNOW is HIV positive and is receiving treatment because the person whose status you DON'T KNOW could very well be HIV negative, thus making your chances reduce to 0% with him, unlike with the HIV positive man where there is still a (small) probability of infection.

    If a person chooses not to have sexual intercourse with a HIV+ man, he is less likely to contract the virus than than the person who does. Being undetectable doesn't make the unlikelihood of infection 100%...there is still a slim possibility. Let's be truthful about the facts.

    Articles like this that basically state you're safer to have sex with an HIV+ person than one that is HIV- are obviously created to take the shame away from status and treatment, but they can give the false impression that HIV is the norm and shouldn't be a concern.
     
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  7. Dante

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    Absolutely not. Of course, you don't want to engage in sexual activity and then you are infected with HIV. However, avoiding dating and/or having sexual relations with someone who is HIV isn't going to decrease your chances of getting HIV.

    Even if you have sexual relations with someone who is HIV positive, the same rules applies to anyone who is not HIV positive: Protection is the Priority!
     
  8. BlackExcellence

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    I can agree with that but I do think it's safer to have sex with an HIV+ who is on treatment than a person who doesn't know their status or hasn't been tested recently.
     
  9. LeMignon

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    I've read many articles backing up this finding of HIV+ men on treatment being the safer option than men with an unknown HIV status.

    HIV- person = does not transmit HIV
    On treatment + Undetectable HIV+ = does not transmit HIV (extremely unlikely)
    On treatment HIV+ = unlikely to transmit HIV (should be undetectable soon)
    Unknown HIV Status = statistically likely to have HIV, likely to transmit HIV


    That being said, safe sex is generally the best option. Many people know they are HIV+ and don't disclose their status. Many people don't know their status and, therefore, don't even have the knowledge to disclose. HIV is widespread in this community. Common sense says to just not deal with HIV+ men. However, common sense actually isn't the answer in this situation. Scientific findings and statistics show that HIV+ men with undetectable viral loads are the better option.

    Here's why I think so:
    HIV has a stigma. When people hear HIV, they think of an early, unescapable death. Nevermind the medical advancements, wide array of treatments, people from the 80s with HIV still living well today, or public figures like Magic Johnson. Most people simply put it off like the Black Plague. That's as far as common sense goes when it comes to HIV. With that said, people are likely to hide something that will prevent them from hooking up with you, getting to know you, dating you, all of that. People refuse to know their status because they have done unsafe things and are not trying to hear some depressing news about having HIV. HIV is also criminalized in, I think, all states, so disclosing can literally lead to jail.

    So it really comes down to trust and perception.
    If a person says that they have HIV and are on treatment--They know about HIV, how it's transmitted, that safe sex is very important, etc. You are likely to trust that when a person says they have HIV, that they have HIV. You are likely to have safe sex and take precautions and all that.

    If a person says that they don't have HIV--Your trust of them not having HIV puts you more at risk. You having any type of sex, safe or risky, puts you more at risk because they could be lying.
     
  10. acessential

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    It's true. Statistically you are more likely to get HIV from sleeping with someone who doesn't know their status than you are from sleeping with someone who is HIV+ and is on treatment. But behavioral psychology tells us that people are still going to be more hesitant to sleep with a known HIV+ dude on treatment than someone who doesn't know their status at all. It's kinda like how people are more afraid to ride in a plane than drive a car even though you're statistically more likely to be in a car crash than a plane crash. Either way, always wrap it up!
     
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  11. tigerbreaux

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    I'm with @ockydub, I had to read this twice, and the language is very off-putting and more confusing than it needs to be, but I get it. Now I can't speak on the validity of the stats, but condoms aren't 100% safe, and user error is HIGHLY possible.

    One thing he did say that's crystal clear: Actively avoiding an HIV+ man who knows his status and on treatment will not reduce your risk of contracting the disease. Unfortunately I think that stigma will be ever-present.
     
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  12. OckyDub

    OckyDub is a Verified MemberOckyDub I gave the Loc'ness monstah about $3.50
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    You aint never lied...
    100dap
     
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  13. African King

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    @ockydub @Nick Delmacy @tigerbreaux Have any of you ever been in a HIV discordant relationship (one partner is + & the other is -)? You just think that at the end of the day it is best to use protection with someone who is - or +?

    Even though someone is HIV- and you are HIV-, you can still get other STDs and I believe HIV as well if I am not mistaken because of the exchange of bodily fluids. Correct me if I am wrong (@questforknowledge your thoughts?).
     
  14. tigerbreaux

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    Well I personally have been with two people who were positive, one who didn't know he was positive at the time. It was scary as hell when I found out, and I needed a minute to process, but we've been good ever since. I've also never had unprotected sex.
     
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  15. Dante

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    My fear is the people who are HIV+ talking about "bareback" and "raw" boldly on sex/dating apps and personals. That approach is just as worst as HIV- people saying the same thing. I had to dismiss/ignore a guy who was HIV+ who only liked having sex raw just because he's taking PrEP and cleans himself out 3 times a week.
     
  16. Nick Delmacy

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    I feel like there are some PC Principal shenanigans going on in this thread and that article...

    First of all, everyone is assuming that the person who outwardly says they refuse to date someone HIV+ is not asking about status at all...This makes no sense. If you have reached that point of paranoia, there's no way you're not using condoms, finding out status and super hesitant/patient with every potential partner.

    Secondly, the logic of that fucking article assumes that EVERYONE you encounter has HIV, difference is some know it and some don't...so its safer to have sex with the HIV+ person on treatment so you might as well just date them over all the rest. On top of that, go ahead and go bareback with them, its super safe!

    :childplease:

    Look I get it...HIV isn't a death sentence and being undetectable is damn near the same as being negative when it comes to the potential for infecting others, also we shouldn't shame or ostracize our brothers and sisters who do live with the virus...but to make the claim that dating a person on treatment is "safer" than dating a HIV- person is personally offensive to me.

    If you throw a rock in a room full of gay men you are still more likely to hit an HIV- person than one who is positive AND undetectable.
     
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  17. OckyDub

    OckyDub is a Verified MemberOckyDub I gave the Loc'ness monstah about $3.50
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    Completely agree with this statement BTW but don't think this is what is in question.

    I think different minds interrupt things differently. I didn't read/see anyone state an HIV+ person on treatment is safer than an HIV- person. What I read was saying it's potentially safer having sex with a HIV+ person on treatment then dating someone and you don't know their status...which involves the whole stigma component.

    Personally I think issues like are jumbled and need to be separated out into distinctive components. The language in the article and in the video is troublesome for me.
     
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  18. Nick Delmacy

    Nick Delmacy is a Verified MemberNick Delmacy Da Architect
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    Yeah I hear you...I'm just reading between the lines of what they were stating in the article, assuming that just because the status is unknown, they are likely to be HIV positive. This is not the case. True, the sexual interaction is more of a gamble...but the odds of infection itself doesn't change since the person a paranoid person would eventually have sex with would have likely been asked about status, etc. Possibly even with verification.

    My only point was if you were a person so afraid of HIV that you purposely avoided having sex with men who were positive, you are likely NOT a person who has sex with someone whose status is unknown. It just doesn't add up that you'd be a person who vehemently rejects HIV+ men for safety and ALSO be someone who doesn't even try to find out if the men you're dating are HIV+ in the first place.
     
  19. OckyDub

    OckyDub is a Verified MemberOckyDub I gave the Loc'ness monstah about $3.50
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    Feel yah...

    According to the article the focus is on stigma with known HIV+ men. They are saying "yo, you know my status, you don't for sure know the other man's status. He may lie and say no and be positive or say no and they really don't know."

    So from their point of view, the HIV+ dude is saying, "I'm your safer bet." Not saying I fully agree or disagree I understand the point of view. Regardless, I don't like the whole feel of trying to make me feel guilty because I may not want to be involved with an HIV+ man.

    In the words of Donal Rumsfield "We don't know what we don't know. There are known unknowns that we don't know. The only thing we do know is that they are unknown" LMAO
     
  20. Nick Delmacy

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    Yeah I got that from the start...I still don't agree lol. Its def a personal judgement call though. After all this I freely admit that I wouldn't reject a HIV+ dude, just playing devil's advocate because I'm seeing a reverse HIV-shaming trend that's very "problematic."
     
  21. OckyDub

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    Hmmm....from my perspective I don't know if I would go as far to say HIV- shaming but there does seem to be an undertone of side eyes being given when someone proudly says they are HIV-.
     
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  22. ColumbusGuy

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    The best safest sex strategy is never about who you are with. IMO is is not really about who you are with or how many you are with, it is about what you do, and how you do it.

    Always use condoms for anal sex. Always. It is that simply. Truvada( If you are lucky enough to afford it and not have any negative side effects from it) along with condoms is even better. You need to assume that everyone is HIV+, and act accordingly.

    Even someone who is HIV positive and is on medication and says their viral load is undetectable is questionable. CDC says that even of the men who are HIV+ and on meds, only 25% are effectively managing their disease, and viral load tests are only good for the time they are taken, viral load can vary in between testings, depending on how well medication is taken(and it must be taken strictly as prescribed to be at most effective).

    It is also my opinion, from experience, from what I have read, etc., that anal sex is by far the riskiest behavior. I have known many people who had HIV and they all got it from unprotected anal sex. I think the (HIV) risks associated with oral sex are actually extremely low, unless you have torn up gums or sores in your mouth or something. Even if you swallow, the risks are low if you have good oral health and swallow quickly and rinse and swallow with something antiseptic( a good strong drink will do this, alcohol is an antiseptic). The mouth, esophagus, and the stomach are actually not hospitable places-the semen gets sent directly into the stomach and a deadly bath of stomach acids. I am not advising swallowing here, just sayin'

    I have slept with men who were HIV positive before there were any effective treatments, and everything was fine because I do not get penetrated, and the few times I did penetrate, condoms were used. We also did all kinds of sexual and erotic things that were not about penetration-this was more popular back in the day when HIV meant death, but seems to have been forgotten pretty much. I also think the proliferation of gay bareback porn is causing increasing numbers of young horny gay men to, when in a situation that is fueled by raging hormones(and possibly drugs and alcohol) to slip up and emulate what they see online.

    Of those men who I knew who contracted HIV, so many believed they were with a 'safe' partner (even their boyfriends) and sadly, they were not and had unsafe anal receptive sex, and had a nasty surprise.

    Treatments have changed and times have changed, but I still stand by that when it comes soley to HIV transmission, again it is not who you do or even how many you do, it is what you do, and how you do it.

    Always. Use. Condoms. If you follow those three words, and assume that everyone is HIV+,and if you are also on Truvada(if you can afford it) there should be no reason to really reject an HIV+ partner imo. I might be a little leery and especially careful if you are into anal and are a bottom, but that would about be it.
     
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  23. Jai

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    I think they try to make HIV the norm. I have a terrible fear of any STD or STI...

    I know it makes me sound mean but I don't like how some dudes have a nonchalant attitude about HIV. Always use condoms AND dental dams as well...lol

    But does being on treatment (undetectable) give folks the right to say they are negative cause I heard a few state such.
     
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