Behind closed doors Cypher Avenue has always struggled with attempting to approach the topic of religion. We understand readers and followers are a diverse group and we have always tried to be respectful of others faith and beliefs. Personally, I rarely talk about my beliefs via social media for good reason. If you have observed some of these conversations like I have, you know they can get nasty with the back and fourth’s between the participants. I feel a believer is never going to convert non-believer via social media if one’s mind is already made up. So why engage in pointless bickering over the internet?
I came across a public religious conversation on social media and subsequently interjected myself, where I summarized my current belief or ideology. Yes, I broke one of my own rules but I gave myself a pass because the ongoing dialog and discourse was very civil. The conversation started because the host posted an article from Daily Mail titled Jesus NEVER Existed and asked followers to share their thoughts. What followed was a pretty interesting discussion. I wanted to share a portion of the exchange between a believer and non-believer in hopes to initiate a similar civil exchange here. For privacy the names of the participants have been changed excepted for my own.
Brandy: My question is why is it such a horrible thing to believe in Jesus? People question his existence when they have no proof he didn’t. Oh, but they’ll say but there’s no proof he did. What about Jesus should we hate? To each their own, however it’s called Faith.
Rob T: It is not a question of HATE. No one has suggested Jesus the figure should be hated; quite the contrary. What is however, so horrible is the history of the treachery of the acts done by the purveyors, leaders, and practitioners of this faith (just as in Islam) who do it in the name of and with the “proclaimed” blessings and orders of the Jesus Christ figure. It is not To Each Their Own – because if it had of been, you wouldn’t have 2 billion Christians on the planet, which happened through generations of genocide, democide, massacres, forced conversion, oppression and subjugation in the name of a figure who maybe never existed. So that is what should be questioned – the HATRED that is caused by those who claim and teach they are doing the work of Jesus Christ. It is also a belief system that collectively continues to exert power and oppression over societies, often infringing on human and civil rights. Just look at the current state of our government – a convoluted mess of conservatism backed by evangelist and extremist Christianity. It is just the truth of the matter. This is the result of the believed and accepted legacy of a figure extolled by an imperial power that became a religious power. The same powers that once worshiped Hercules (Son of God), and Zeus, and Jupiter, who we now know and accept as folklore, but replaced by Jesus who no one wants to question.
Brandy: Even those who claim they are Christians question Jesus. They have had their own questions and doubts, though chose to go forth in their Faith or not. Also, those who claim they are doing God’s will by being violent towards others should be the ones questioned. Jesus was hated before we were even here and Yeshua (Jesus in Hebrew) is not the same as Zeus. Yeshua is the Son of the Living God.
When I say to each their own, I am saying that people will believe what they want to believe. Scriptures are twisted and taken out of context all the time. The government for which we have does not follow in Christian faith, but more so to benefit themselves. If they did, our Government wouldn’t be the way it is today. From what it seems, there are very few ‘true followers’ of Jesus which makes it so others don’t see the meaning to do so. There is a difference between those Christians who follow Jesus and love how he loved and those who claim they’re Christians by killing others in His name.
Rob T: What is the Christian faith?
Brandy: It is loving one another. That is what Jesus told his disciples. Are those who claim they are followers who kill people in His name because they say God wanted them to true believers? And Deuteronomy 4:35 and 4:39 Basically state there is no other but God.
Rob T: FYI Christianity has never been a benign, peace loving, organized religion. Regardless of how we or you choose to practice it or believe in it now, that is not its record of note. Not in 2000 years has it come in peace until 21st century. African Americans may be vigilant and loyal to their Jesus today, but 100+ years ago Jesus was beaten into them, forced on them by overseers and masters, used to pacify them and make them controllable. That is the same story for almost every ethnic country that was overtaken by Europe. Prior to the whip and chains, Jesus had not given 1 person of color a vision or an epiphany to come to Christ. Christ came with the fear of death at the hands of power. We are merely the progeny of the generations of those broken people who have passed down those forced beliefs and we now make them our own. #STUDY #QUESTION #PROVE
Octavius Williams: Following a heavily censored and edited book but saying it’s the truth…is like watching only 20 minutes of the first movie in a trilogy and saying it’s the best movie trilogy ever. I will always question that logic and faith.
Brandy: People focus on organized religion rather than having a relationship with Jesus. It isn’t just about The Bible. There’s way more to it than that. It seems people would rather go their whole lives not believing or believing in aliens before they ever believe that Jesus Christ loved and died. Are you saying Jesus singled out those of color on purpose?
Rob T: I am saying… that Jesus the Christ did not have any relevance to anyone of color prior to them being killed, forced, and subjugated for hundreds of years to accept this belief system under the swords and whips of European Christians. And if you are to believe that GOD wanted the world to be saved by his son, why where the only people he told that, gave a vision to, those Emperors, Popes, and Kings of Europe who were out to conquer foreign lands? This all knowing, omnipresent, loving GOD and this spirit of Jesus chose death and violence to spread their message to everyone else?
Random Person: There’s no need to stand up for Jesus. If he’s in your heart and you believe he existed, it wouldn’t matter what others think. Doubt is a very uncomfortable feeling, especially if you doubt something that gives you comfort. That’s why most people who believe in supreme beings try to convince all around them that they existed. If everyone believes, it strengthens your faith. True faith doesn’t need support from others.
Brandy: Especially when a woman is standing up for faith like I have, I expected that to be thrown at me sooner or later. It still does not sway the Faith I have. People question His existence more than have Faith. People would be content believing in Unicorns without hesitation than believing in God, even on Sunday. We are supposed to be disciples and spread the word to others and to Love.
Rob T: What I am asking is that we not continue this revisionist history of Christianity, seeking to defend it by separating what you glean from it apart from its real origins and it’s real truths. A Klans member can extoll the virtues of brotherhood and ethnic pride but that does not negate the fact that the KKK is a hate group that murdered and intimidated thousands of people of color.
Brandy: Questioning if Jesus exists is like questioning if I exist.
Rob T: But you do exist because guess what, the records will prove that 200 years from now. You have a birth certificate, a soc security card, a driver’s license, maybe a passport, credit card and banking statements, employment history, hopefully no criminal record LOL. FB is a living record of your existence alone. You will probably one day leave bones and DNA. There will be no problem of you being proven to have existed. Jesus is the world’s first and best Catfish ever.
Octavius Williams: Wait, wait…so believers and non-believers are actually discussing Jesus, faith and religion in a Facebook thread?
Brandy: In a respectful manner as well. If Faith in Jesus is not your choosing what is it that you believe?
Octavius Williams: Just as you have a right to believe I have a right not to believe…my point was for me this is pointless. If your soul existed 4000 years ago before “Jesus” was born what would you have faith in? Faith comes from being taught to believe…if you never knew of it how would your life be? That question is for anyone reading not any particular people on the thread.
Brandy: You guys need evidence and facts and visuals. Faith is believing even when you don’t see but having hope. If we were never taught what we know now, we wouldn’t know it. We wouldn’t know Racism is wrong or killing or raping people is wrong.
Rob T: That’s not true at all.
Brandy: What is not true?
Rob T: Racism was taught and supported for hundreds of years using Christianity. The abuse and subjugation of women was taught and is continued to be taught by Christianity.
Octavius Williams: and lies are taught just like truth…
Brandy: What is Truth to you Octavius?
Octavius William: When I look up at the night sky and realize I’m the universe and not bond to the pale blue dot.
Brandy: Do you see Christianity as having power and authority rather than believing Jesus suffered and died? I can sense I’m standing alone in this, but so be it. I respect both of your view points.
Octavius Williams: No you are not alone…there are hundreds of millions of people who share your views and only maybe 10’s of millions who share mine. You are not the minority here.
Rob T: What is the point of Jesus suffering and dying? What do you think that did for you?
Octavius Williams: Brandy I will not question your faith….I have no right to; it belongs to you.
Rob T: Did you know that the concept of Original Sin, was created by St. Augustine of Hippo (A.D. 354-430) to explain why bad things happen to good people and it was argued and fought and voted upon by a council of men before it was accepted as a doctrine in Christianity?
Brandy: I just want to ask, what is not believing do for you?
Octavius Williams: Q: What is not believing do for you? A: It allows me to be free and unbound. I’m not obligated to believe or have faith in something outside of myself and follow rules originated 1000’s of years ago to prove I’m relevant today. I believe in myself and all of my insecurities and understand that my life is all about the journey. I look within myself for faith and courage and not in a scripture or deity. I’m made up of all the elements in the universe and its known and unknown laws and not those of just one planet in one solar system in one galaxy out of hundreds of billions or perhaps trillions.
Brandy: I respect that response. I would much rather sit down with the both of you instead of over a Facebook post, however, I’m interested in people’s thoughts and why they think or believe the way they do. Loving others should be the only goal. I’ll still choose to love others despite whether or not they believe.
Rob T: I first and foremost believe in reason. I believe in the human capability to make sense of the world he is given, to err and to improve. I believe in the ability for the human mind to develop laws and morality based on its needs for survival. I believe that the awe and wonder of life lies in the natural not the supernatural. I believe that life before death is of more importance than life after death. I believe that all the capability for joy and peace and love comes from you and is not given to you. I don’t believe in an anthropomorphic GOD figure who sits in Heaven selfishly dictating the lives of the toys it he/she plays with. Instead I believe in the greatness of a living and intelligent universe that we are all made from and a part of, not separate and independent from, thus it is in our own best interest to respect that and not of the interest of some supernatural being. I believe that religion is a scapegoat for responsibility and a crutch for the avoidance of pain.
Brandy: I don’t believe God just sits up there waiting to cast us into Hell.
Octavius Williams: I agree god wouldn’t do that either. He needs our souls for his army to fight Satan’s army in the coming apocalypse. Sorry I was being an asshole and trying to lighten the mood. I will leave the thread now
Rob T: It also serves as a scapegoat and avoidance for the responsibility of making your own joy and peace. I understand that existentially people developed the need for something to explain that they cannot until those stressors can be alleviated, so religion serves that purpose as does training wheels provide stability and confidence for a child learning to ride a bike. However, I believe that religion is crippling like it would be to see a 35 year old man still riding a bike on training wheels.
Brandy: I do not rely on Christ alone, but myself as well. It is a relationship that goes hand in hand. He is not my religion, He is my Savior. I am responsible for my actions and words. I don’t blame God for my bad actions.
Rob T: What bothers me most is that we so easily throw out the term belief when it comes to Jesus, Satan or certain doctrine when in fact there is very available, re-searchable, studied, historic, and documented proof of when and how those figures, concepts or belief systems were created and formed by MEN. Any well respected seminary school teaches this information. Yet and still, the idea persists that all you need is to BELIEVE. Sorry, the world is not flat. We have mapped the planet, left the planet and took video and pics of it. Saying it’s a matter of belief is frightening to me. And that suspension of reason is dangerous and has always proven to be dangerous throughout the history of mankind.
As always, feel free to share your thoughts.
OckyDub
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I don’t really feel safe touching this. I’ll only say what @Ocky mentioned earlier. My belief is my belief. No one else has to believe it & it is everyone’s right to believe or not believe. I don’t believe in man’s ways of taking the gospel and using it to oppress or enslave others. However, I do believe in the loving God. I believe in the Jesus that spoke love and not hate. Jesus is the pure definition of love and I just can’t help but get behind that.
Someone once told me concerning God, “Wouldn’t you rather live like there is a God and find out later that there isn’t, than to live like there is no God & find out that there is?” Mind was made up lol.
But no, to be 100% real… If you look at the teaching of JESUS CHRIST in the New Testament of the bible, you’ll find nothing but teachings of love and how to be a decent human being. Somewhere the church has lost sight of that MUCH IMPORTANT part of the scripture and chose to focus on condemnation. Without a hell or heaven to put someone in, that seems to be their main focus, when in fact they need to be focused on preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
But as we are imperfect human beings, we all just do the best we can with the brains, experiences and choices left before us. I agree to live and let live, allowing others to make their choices as they see fit as long as they’re not trying to hurt me. I can allow you to believe what you believe in as long as you allow me to believe what I believe in. At the end of the day, if the message of love is in your heart you’re good in my book.
Well, I think a lot of my issues with organized Christianity is that it’s so organized and many problems that I have are actually with the churches themselves and the people in them.
How can you talk about love, yet you complaining because you think that LaQuisha’s dress was too tight to wear to church. What was that come as you are part all about? Why did you not suggest she wear something less revealing? That may have been LaQuisha’s Sunday Best.
Why, every year, do you have to talk about homosexuality and Soddom and Gamorroah? Let’s concentrate on being positive and loving each other as humans ant not worry about who they are attracted to.
Why are you having a contest over who can say “PPPREEEEEEEEAAAAAACCCCCHHHHHHHHH!” and “Hallelujah, Jesus!” the loudest?
I just do not understand that mentality.
I don’t think people should be shamed when they don’t believe in God. Why do Christians pick on atheists so much but don’t bother Buddhists or Hindus?
I am a live and let live type person. What you think or believe does not affect me and my beliefs.
Eventually, we will all find out what is at the end, if anything.
Oh, they bother the Buddhists, the Hindus, the Muslims, the Jews, the Shamans, the Olórisá, the Hounsi…if it ain’t got nothin to to do with JEEZUHS, then it ain’t right.
I see everyone’s viewpoints but I have to agree with Lyriq on this one. I would say that “dealing with this whole gay thing” has had me question myself and also reading the articles on this website regarding the “lesser abominations of the bible” had me question my faith too.
But this right here by @lyriq88 says: “If you look at the teaching of JESUS CHRIST in the New Testament of the bible, you’ll find nothing but teachings of love and how to be a decent human being. Somewhere the church has lost sight of that MUCH IMPORTANT part of the scripture and chose to focus on condemnation. Without a hell or heaven to put someone in, that seems to be their main focus, when in fact they need to be focused on preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ.”
I do agree with pretty much everyone here about living and let live. I know that I can NEVER convince @ocky or @nick to become a believe like I am. We are all a culmination of our experiences and I do believe in God. There are several things that have happened in my life which are unexplainable. I do not believe in coincidence, chance, etc. I believe everything happens for a reason. There is a lot more that I believe but I will not write all of that out here lol.
What do you do with the hypocrites? They “preach” a message of love, but they do otherwise. So all hypocrites are ok with you as long as the talk the talk, but don’t the walk the walk. That’s the biggest issue with Christianity… it is full of hypocrites. I believe that is who is most attracted to that religion–hypocrites.
I just said I was afraid to touch this and then wrote half of a dissertation. I hate when I do that smh.
It’s like the Cypher Avenue comments section sends you its nudes and makes you wanna give it a try.
I have always struggled with my belief in Christianity. When I was a kid I was fascinated with Greek Mythology. But, being the scientific minded 4th grader I was, I couldn’t understand why we dismissed Zeus and Hercules but accepted Jesus when there’s no physical proof of eithers existence.
I was never ‘strong enough’ then to ask this in Sunday school and such since, kids really have no voice in black church until someone is ‘put on program’. Only in my adulthood have I ever been to a church where actual discussion took place and not people just reading whatever was the week’s Sunday School lesson was or just listen to what the pastah has on the agenda. Even when I did attend, it still didn’t seem welcoming to ask ‘hard questions’.
Today, I still have problems trying to understand why black people flock to the church like they do and actually spend more time (3+ hours a Sunday) in church which is way more than their white counter parts. It is as if everyone forgot that we were once slaves and had this Christianity forced onto us. We were all happy just living out in the dessert in Africa before they came along.
Now, notice how all of the melanin having continents already had some type of belief system going before the Europeans visited and said “Hey, would like to know about my friend, Jesus?”
Today, black folks especially, run and hid from Jehovah Witnesses but they are doing the same things that Christians do for years: “Hey, there are some humans living in a Brazilian rainforest! They must be told about Christ or they will burn in hell forever!”
I just don’t think it’s anyone’s place to convert someone over to their belief system. You can inform them about how things work on your team as an educational device, and if they are so inclined to know more, then great. If not, then leave them be and quit the high pressure sales tactics.
I’m quite disillusioned.
I feel everything you just said with the exception of…”we were happy living in the deserts of Africa”. In comparison, very few Africans were taken slave from Northern/ Saharan Africa, majority came from Sub-Saharan/ West Africa. LOL Lemme stop. I know you were just making a generalized statement though, my dude. But yeah, I personally do not like when mo’ fo’s ask me about my practice. I’m like… dude, there’s MORE than enough mu’fukas gettin involved in this that DON’T need to be involved. That may sound selfish, but it is what it is. My practice’s reputation has taken a nose dive due to the influx of people entering it that have no real respect for its customs/history.
As a kid, the very few times I was forced to go to Church/Bible Study, I hated it. The stories made no sense to me (I too was a mythology buff as a kid, but I felt more understanding from Greek/Roman, Norse, (I knew about my father’s side; and subsequently my; current practice, but in those times there were no books available on it.) mythology than Bible stories. When I asked questions as to why things where the way they were, the answer was always…”because of sin”. Really?? So there are different languages in the world because of sin (Tower of Babel)? C’mon now. I always felt the church had a funny smell, the women were always mean, and something never sat right with me about the preacher. Only thing I ever liked and still like to this day was the music, but not for the message, I just liked the sound of it.
I think a lot of black Christians show up in church because of the side show:
A and B selection
Fashion show
Hymnal Prayer soloists when there’s no solo
I went to church once with my ex and I know there were at least 5 songs played. I was like this is church not a concert. It’s why when I was going regularly, and alone, I’d always be late so that I’d just got the sermon and leave. Now because I don’t have any interest in church shopping the Atlanta area I’m brunching on my Sunday mornings like the other gays.
This reminds me of this meme/GIF I saw my padrino posted at one point, showing a Amerindian Shaman speaking to some Christian-esc Missionary. It said something to the effect of…
“So, if you had never told me about Christ before now, would I have gone to hell after I die. “No” “So then why’de you tell me?”
Religion is like politics, when one person has their mind made up on their particular stance/ belief on the matter. 9.99 times outta 10 they will not be swayed, and not for nothing, that’s their right. The “Christian Experience” for me has been one of judgement, criticism, and sarcasm for any and everything not “Christian”. My faith, ironically enough, is ridiculed and condemned by the very same race that descend from (the many facets of) it. It is truth that Christianity has been used as a tool of oppression for many 100’s of years (along with Islam) and it ABSOLUTELY assimilated a myriad of “Pagan” customs/stories/images into itself in order to validate it’s message and more efficiently convert those it set out to convert. Christians will get all up at arms about this, but historical reasearch does not lie. I have no doubt Jesus existed, but I do feel many of the stories attributed to him are either not his, or greatly exaggerated. Most were written long after his death.
I f#$kin love this statement you made, Ocky…
“I’m made up of all the elements in the universe and its known and unknown laws and not those of just one planet in one solar system in one galaxy out of hundreds of billions or perhaps trillions.”
My “religious” preference, as much as I don’t like the word “religion”, is nature based like damn near all (Pagan) religions, though nowadays many of the followers are caught up in the title/ position that comes with initiation and have no real concept of our connection to the earth/universe. Even though I do adhere to a practice, I know that it’s not the “end all be all”, therefore I don’t try to force my beliefs on others, there’s no need. Everything is not for everybody and my faith brings ME comfort, but Christians feel this incessant need to force their beliefs on EVERYONE with ears under the premise of “savin’ yo’ soul and gettin’ you RIGHT…with my JEEZUHS”. Ummm…how bout you get right within your own self first. And that starts with not blaming some outside/invisible force for EVERY bad thing that happens to you. The Devil didn’t make your son sell drugs and end up in jail, your son choosing to sell drugs ended him up in jail. Yes, my practice has a force that is believed to cause malice, but it is preceded by CHOICE. You choose your path and you reap either the benefit or punishment of your CHOICE. A religious practice should be something for one to refer to in times of strife, not a rigid…
I’ve been waiting for this conversation ever since Cypher Avenue went live.
The problem with religion is that people have taken a good idea,and used it for their purposes.It’s either misused to reinforce a person’s opinion,such as racism,sexism, and homophobia,or it’s watered down into empty traditional gestures that offer no relevance or enlightenment to the individual.In the case of the latter,it becomes a numbers game.It has to be generic enough to bring in enough followers.And in the case of politics,it’s used to back-up personal opinions,and for the sake of a good appearance .The candidate likes God,so I like the candidate.Religion is a tool
It’s like education.Higher education used to be about expanding your mind and discovery.Now it’s about jumping through hoops for your degree and making sure the loan companies get a check.Advancing your mind is still a valid and enriching part of life.But the educational SYSTEM is shallow and broken.
That’s how I see spirituality.It’s meant to be a philosophy.Love others.Practice behaviors that better yourself. Don’t judge! . In this case,believing in God still has merit,but Religion is a man-made institution,and is fallible.
I’ve been waiting for this site to have this kind of discussion since CA went live.
I consider myself a believer.I do not think that life as we experience is the highest form of consciousness.I think we are too flawed and limited for this to be the ultimate height of existence.Everything is powered by transfers of energy,that all began with the Big Bang.I think “Someone” for lack of a better term was involved with that.I believe in the Supernatural,but I think science has more to do with how God works than we tend to think.If He invented the universe,he can use it.The study of atoms and the Cosmos,for me,has a part of strengthening my faith.Just as my emotions are an intangible concept,there’s still a scientific correspondence with them.However,chemicals are not the complete origin of my feelings and character.
Everything is energy .The vibrations never die.this life is not the end.My electricity will leave this collection of molecules,but it will radiate into a new form of existence.
Spot on. I do believe in God and I have my Faith. I just don’t believe in organized religion because as you said, it has been used as a tool. Sadly, it has been used as a tool for a lot of negativity such as the racism, sexism and homophobia.
“That’s how I see spirituality.It’s meant to be a philosophy.Love others.Practice behaviors that better yourself. Don’t judge! . In this case,believing in God still has merit,but Religion is a man-made institution,and is fallible.
Everything is energy .The vibrations never die.this life is not the end.My electricity will leave this collection of molecules,but it will radiate into a new form of existence.”
Love this POV, my dude.
Thanks man.I was into what you said too.Nature holds more revelation than we think.I see it as an extension of the Creator.He made it,swe should appreciate it.Everything is connected.
Christianity is nothing but insanity-breeding garbage that has caused the destruction of cultures, people, and critical thinking skills. Yea, I said it.
Question; does anyone else find it odd that we refer to God (The Creator) as Him or He? Only a woman can and knows what’s it like to actually bring forth a soul upon the earth. Women literally bring forth human life.
I have. Especially after I learned how the human body starts out female.
The human body begins as female sex PHYSICALLY. Genetically speaking, sex is determined from the get go.
Forgive me if I’m incorrectly paraphrasing here,but I think some faiths teach that the earth is a feminine entity and supplies the physical side,while there’s a male counterpart who plants the seed/breath/spark of life.I think all religions have some overlapping areas (certain spiritual truths are considered universal) and the idea of a male who supplies our spirit component probably influenced the terminology.
For my personal use,it’s a matter of conversational convenience,so as not to say “When IT created the world”,and of course ,I cannot deny,habit.
Well people are always saying “Mother Earth” or “Mother Nature.”
That’s had to come from somewhere.
Unless maybe thinking that “Earth” and “Nature” are mortal while “God” being immortal and thus, taking the male pronoun.
Hummm….
You’re right, Dre.
Just dust off your copy of “The Da Vinci Code” I’m pretty sure it explains most of it.
I learned a long time ago never to debate a devoutly religious person. Their final answer will always be “…because God said so” and a nonbeliever’s will always be “prove it.” I do have a problem when Christianity or any group tries to rewrite history just because they can’t accept that reality and fact don’t fit what they’ve been taught, such as rewriting textbooks to teach “creationism” or relabeling the the Civil War as a fight for “states rights against northern aggression”
Christian dogma is made up. God is real. I know this because I have a mirror.
O hale nawl.I can accept anyone’s point of view,but you are NOT going to tell me God isn’t a white man.
I don’t particularly care for Kanye, but I get what he’s sayin’ here 1000000%.
Side note…lookin at this clip, for some reason lookin’ at his facial expression and hearin his cadence, I see this dude…LOL
For the last 18 months I have been in a diplomacy graduate program and its modeled in a seminary format. In that same time one of my closest friends is in a theological seminary and needless to say we have some pretty contrasting views on a host of issues. I rarely talk about my personal faith because I believe that its just that personal, I like my friends grew up in the Presbyterian religious tradition and that was/is a part of my life. My friend is what you would consider a evangelical christian not as extreme as fundamentalist but pretty darn close and we have managed to maintain our friendship because we realized that no matter what we are highly unlikely to change each others worldviews. I think that is the key. Learning to to accept the fact that you are probably not going to change each other viewes. That doesn’t mean that you can talk about issues of culture and faith and in our case science and faith. My friend is a literal believer in biblical prophecy, me on the other hand doesn’t think that dinosaurs and humans lived at the same time. Part of me sorta envies his faith a little because I have never really had that much devotion to a set of values. As a person who studies diplomacy, I realize that the world is large and complex and there are people all around the world who worship in different ways and have different beliefs and values and to me its illogical to think that if the Universe had one creator how come the world exists as it does…my friend always ask me “what if heaven exists?” I usually reply with “heaven has to exist because we are currently living in hell with violence and hunger, war, hatred, disease, and all the things we see on the news every night.” I say that if there is a better afterlife for me then so be it. I think that religion today has become a business, a business of control and power, instead of the almighty-God it is the almighty-dollar. My friend asked me why I left the church and I say I didn’t leave the church the church left me. Thankfully, for Presbyterians, they have come a long way from the days of teaching and preaching hatred and sin to a message of love. For me love is light. Love will lead you to the light in whatever form you receive it whether it’s God, or Allah, the Creator, or the Universe. Ultimately, if God does exist, I think she will say “BlackguyExecutive job well done, you live life with a purpose and practice love, you made mistakes and that ok, a better world awaits you now.”
“I think that is the key. Learning to accept the fact that you are probably not going to change each other views.” But many religious people are not accepting or respectful.
Part of being a follower of Christ or being Christian is that they have to or supposed to go forth and preach Jesus’ gospel/word and attempt to convert the unconverted to him. This is by definition attempting to change the mind and opinions of others on something that may be very personal to individuals. This for me is kinda disrespectful and arrogant.
Proselytizing is definitely a problem and I do think there are a great deal of evangelical and fundamental Christians who take this to the extreme. The ironic part is that they use that same type of sentiment against gays and lesbians when they make the claim that we are “recruiting” people to the homosexual agenda/lifestyle. Basically its all one big oxymoron.
I think the weird thing is that I think me and my friend are backhandedly tolerant of each other and I am not sure if that is real in sense of friendship. I hate using the word tolerance. It implies a negative connotation.
VERY disrespectful and arrogant. That (along with the Judgmental attitudes of more than a few of them) is really the only issue I have with them. Keep your opinions and views to yourself unless asked. I just went out to grab lunch and saw someone with this HUGE ass sign strapped to them talk bout…:”Only Jesus Saves, blah blah blah”. Come on man, I can only imagine the outrage if people were to run around with huge signs say…”Direct your prayers to Osún! Only she can bring you Joy” or “Orísáalá is the Light, and Ésu is The Way”. Have several seats with that shit. smh.
Surprisingly,a Baptist preacher touched on this matter rather well.He said MAybe you shouldn’t go around answering the phone with HALLELUJAH Praise God.What if the other person on the phone is of the Muslim faith? You’ve just killed the conversation
That what grinds my gears about people who get mad over “Happy Holidays” versus “Merry Christmas.” How in the world is “Happy Holidays” offensive? SYAD.
Because this is the “Drake” Day & Age, where muthafukaz can get (as you love to say) Butt Hurt over any and everything, and can (literally) make a legal case out of it. LOL
Oh damn. I do need to buy some new vocabulary. Imma have to drop it down to two ‘butthurts’ a week.
Nah, dude. Continue. LOL It makes me chuckle everytime I see it. I have a very vivid imagination so everytime you use “Butt Hurt” I can literally see nikkaz bein butt hurt, in my head. LOL
If there is any good to your way of life it should be made manifest in your every day existence. We should be able to see your beliefs made real. If there is good in you let it exude from your pores, let it permeate the room as you enter, let it be contagious. As was stated, religion is but a vehicle – for some, but not all – to spirituality. The sad part is that many, if not most, in the church are still spiritually bankrupt. When I engage devout religious practitioners “I” feel hopeless for humanity. I disengage feeling a terrible void. I am sunken with sadness for the lack of depth. Why? Because I have just engaged a Zombie impersonating as human. It is all so superficial.
If “we shall overcome” it will not be through religion, it will not be through Christianity. Hundreds of years of praising – and – NOW – “praise dancing,” worshiping, praying, holy dancing, etc. has not “saved us” from more insidious craziness and evil. If we are to measure the results of what religion – Christianity – can do and should do I am at a lost for words. I see no results.
that’s because while black folk are busy dancing, singing and shouting to the heavens in church, the rest of the world is learning real-world, practical strategies for their collective advancement in THIS life.
Somehow we (blacks) have missed the memo that in order to enjoy the after life, you first have to make it through THIS life.
I cringe every time there are mimes and praise dancers in church.
“Oh golly! There’s a captive audience in the pews! This will be a great time for me to dance and do my drag at church.”
Again, this is why I think black churches have really become more about the show and less about actual worship, or understanding of the text.
It’s all about who got the best “Praise Break” LMAO
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Won’t the worldliness of somebody come out when their church song is on and that 135 beats per minute drum beat is going? lol
LOL…I needed that laugh this morning. Drag at church. Yeah most if not all churches I have been to have a carnival circus like dance breaks.
My view on the whole spreading-the-good-word thing is that you’re meant to put it out there on the table,in the right forum.If someone wants to know more they can continue the dialogue with you.If they aren’t interested you shouldn’t push the issue.
It’s like if you’re a fan of something. You can state your case as to why you have passion for the subject,but you shouldn’t detract from anyone else’s opinion,or force them to have yours.
With anything though I feel like your words should just be clarification of your actions.If you follow a certain way of life it should be at least somewhat evident to those who observe you. If you have to go around shouting and hollering about anything about yourself then you’re overcompensating.
I remember talking with one of my friends from Guinea (West African country) and she is Muslim. She was so pissed off about something we were talking about. She said that when people of the Islamic faith want to spread their faith on the college campus by handing out pamphlets and setting up tables where their members meet with students on campus, they are seen as Islamic extremists. Then when Christians do it, they are seen as that is a normal thing.
Gotta love the contradiction. I saw on my FB Feed this morning, my padrino posted something that showed KKK Member in one frame and Arab Muslims in the other, stated that people forget the Clansmen represent Christianity as well and no one bats an eye, but ALL Muslims are seen (by the majority) of Western Society as Terrorists.
Wow! I must say that I’m shocked that this website would feature an article like this. I just assumed you all stayed away from discussing controversial and/or serious issues on this site.
In my opinion, Christianity was one of the WORST things to happen to black people. This I’m thoroughly convinced. Like you @Ocky, I just don’t believe the hype anymore. When I was younger, I had questions that no one was able to answer, I mean absolutely no one. The Christian bible as we know it just doesn’t make much sense. I never bought the idea that you are supposed to follow the New Testament and disregard the information in the Old Testament. My thing was always, if I can’t use what’s in the Old Testament, how am I supposed to trust what’s in the New Testament?
As I grew older and acquired more knowledge I realized the significant toll that Christianity has taken on black people worldwide. If blacks were to wake up and do some critical assessments, we’ll see that our attachment to Christianity has gotten us NOWHERE as a people.
I have stated to friends and loved ones that the only way that blacks are going to heal, advance and progress in THIS life is to break our collective attachment to Christianity. Whether we choose to believe it or not, Christianity is still keeping us in bondage.
Any free-thinking individual who is interested in exploring ideas as to why Christianity is bad for blacks should read the book “The Black Church: The Root of the Problems” by Dr. Steve Cole. Very interesting read.
Part of the problem is a lot of Christians don’t follow one of the main rules of the Bible; “study to show thyself approved.” It’s more than memorizing scripture. You have to look at historical context and also understand we don’t have the full story. And actually paying attention to what is presented. Most of the issues people have with Christianity and their doctrine (such as the abominations of Leviticus law) is actually taken from the Old Testament, which is technically what Jesus came to reform in his ministry (and why he was eventually crucified.) His message was one only of love, kindness, humility, and acceptance (the early Christians were routinely slaughtered and killed if discovered.) The only time he got angry was when people turned the temple/church into a den of thieves/place of profit.
“The only time he got angry was when people turned the temple/church into a den of thieves/place of profit.”
…like quite a few of them today? Also, just out of genuine curiosity…was the “Bible” in existence when Jesus was alive? I was under the impression “Christianity” gave “birth” to the Bible and as a group/religion was formed long after/and as a result of, Jesus’s /life/teachings/death.
Exactly like a few of them today which is half the problem.
As to did the Bible exist in the past, not in the way it does now, no. Jesus was Jewish and Judaism, by the time he’d come around, was a theocracy which is where Leviticus (roughly “The Law”) came about to try to keep the purity of the Jewish people from the “corrupt” influences of the various conquerors of the Isrealites. The Philistines, which were their priests and judges were very Vatican-esque and codified their laws, histories, and belief systems and taught them to others.
The new Testament was written after Jesus’s death by various disciples, with a few books of the New Testament actually being letters sent to various beginning congregations (see Corinthians,) and finally put together and translated from Greek centuries later. And then once the Protestants and Catholics had their schism, some books were removed from Protestant Bibles for political and dogmatic reasons and that’s mostly the Bible black Christians read and wok off of today.
That’s really interesting.
the scriptures Jesus followed were things in the old testament.The laws of Abraham,Moses, stuff like that.Jesus isn’t a factor unti the second half aka the New testament.
For more than 2000 years heterosexuality has been viewed by the church as the normative behavior for all of humanity, it is the default setting for what it said is completely human. this patriorical understanding of sexual identity has been used to justify and legitimized to created multiple oppressive structures to be enforced on not just any one identified as LGBT but also women children and any persons of color. it is the vaunted Conservative and liberal understandings of scriptures that has created this disillusionment of and about and one whom may be considered LGBT.
the new world era must adopted a internationalist view of scriptures and theology, for it is an approached that seeks to understand sexuality from the perspective from the oppressed by how sexuality has been historically be defined within Christianity. The greatest evils against humanity occur when good religious folks safeguard against the evils of others. Then it should not be surprising the defending traditional marriage as a negation of the abomination of the gay lifestyle, abominable acts against those who are gay becomes legitimized. Those who are heterosexual inscribe their genealogies upon the cultural consciousness, it those struggles and accomplishments shapes what it means to be a man, to subjugate all those who are weaker then they. Women children and any persons of darker skin pigmentation and effeminate men.It is the pathology of heterosexual identity that was constructed to ensure a heterosexual future that preserve and enforce the power and privilege white men. This constructed understanding of manliness becomes the normative gaze for all of society to aspire to and emulate. Yet the truth of what it means to be straight is not found in the self-construction of identity. For the truth ones sense of self is often times found the loci of the other. It is for that reason heterosexual power structures look to the locus other for domination to maintain power.Societal structures have a tendency to cherry-pick parts of the bible to use to justify their actions and ignore the parts that would make the hypocrites, for example according to the bible any child that disrespects his or her parents shall be put to death: anyone who curses his father or mother shall be executed: also anyone who commits adultery shall be put to death, and on and on it goes. In fact the term and concept of homosexual didn’t come in too existence until early 19th century. Nor is there a Greek or Hebrew that is equivalent the English word for gay. Nor were in the biblical text is orientation mentioned how then can the bible condemn something it never mentions. Both the Hebrew and the Greek text used euphemism to describe same sex acts given their understanding of the nature of sexuality.What the text does mention in the case of same sex acts committed by heterosexuals because in the minds of the biblical writers it was assumed everyone was heterosexual. There were few instances where the bible refers to same sex intercourse when it does it focus on the sexual acts not the person’s identity or orientation. There are many broad understanding of that is to be gay, in many cultures only the one that places himself In the position of a woman is considered gay. Sex with another man does not define homosexuality; only the one how is willing penetrated is considered gay. The man how is in the dominate position with the sex act is able to sustain his masculinity for his ability to penetrate. Historically penetration symbolized superiority. It is the ultimate metaphor for ones potion of the societal structures. If one considers prison rape, it is not about sex it is about power and the demasculinization of the other. The reason same sex relationships are greeted with such hostility is because it is a direct affront the established gender based hierarchical structures set up by straight men to maintain power and dominance of the other.
Christianity is fraudulent just like ever other religion. It is middle-eastern mythology that was adopted and adapted by Europeans. The only reason most of the western world is Christian is because Emperor Constantine made Christianity the official state religion of the Roman empire. The very idea that god has a son is an affront to monotheism. The Jewish concept of a messiah is a man not a god. The function of the Messiah was to free Israel from Roman rule not save the human race from “sin”. That is lie made up by the early church. Jesus was made into the son of god by the 1st council of Nicaea. There is no physical or historical evidence that Yahweh or Jesus exist. In fact the Abrahamic god(Yahweh/Jehovah0 who supposedly is omnipotent and the creator of universe seems rather petty, parochial, and limited when you think about it. His entire sphere of influence is the ancient middle east no other human population on earth ever heard of this so-called god until Christianity and Islam spread throughout the world like a cancer. Both of these religions are tools of white and Arab imperial conquest. The only reason most black people, especially black people in the western hemisphere are Christians is because of slavery. It is tool to make black people docile, passive, and obedient which are desirable traits for a slave. Black people especially black gay people shouldn’t support this stupid, barbaric, obsolete, inhumane, and corrupt mythology.