In a recent NPR Fresh Air interview to promote his new film, Top Five, writer/director Chris Rock was forced to defend the gay jokes in the film by host Terry Gross. You may say he was sideswiped, but Terry Gross warned him that she was about to enter territory where Rock would need to put up his guard.
But was she right to ask the question in the first place?
Just for the record, I’ve already seen Top Five at a private screening for media. Its a pretty great film. No, let me clarify. Its a pretty fucking great film!
I enjoyed everything about the movie. It was clever and fun and smart and creative. It may not be treading new waters, but I had a great time watching it nonetheless.
Especially for a “Black Film.” I hate to use that label, but there are many elements of the film that are speaking specifically from a black experience. However, the way the story is told and the way in which the actors portray it, it doesn’t feel “Black.”
Having said that, I did have one problem with the movie…The “gay” part of the movie.
SPOILER ALERT!
What I’m about to discuss is vague and has no big impact on the enjoyment of the film whether you know this in advance or not, but I know some people like going in with a blank slate. So if you plan on seeing the movie and want to be completely surprised by every singe element, STOP READING NOW!
Still here?
Let’s continue.
At one point in the film its revealed that a character is gay. And (surprise, surprise) he’s on the “down low.”
Sigh.
Even I groaned when the revelation hit the screen. So did the rest of the audience. But not for the same reason. I’m not a mind reader but their groan was more of a “Ewww, gross” one. I could deduce that from the tone, the 95% black audience and my own personal past experiences with black people in a movie theater during a “gay scene.”
In the interview with Chris Rock, Terry Gross asked him about the “gay” scenes featuring this character. She challenged him in a way that even challenged the way I thought about the film.
Listen to the relevant portion of the interview starting at the 13:17 minute mark:
GROSS: If you are just joining us, my guest is Chris Rock, and he wrote, directed and stars in the new movie “Top Five.” So I’m really enjoying talking with you. And here’s a question about the movie – and this is the part of the interview where I’m afraid I’m going to lose you.
ROCK: Oh, Terry – Terry Gross.
GROSS: (Laughter).
ROCK: Terry Gross, come on.
GROSS: I don’t want to give away too much, but there is a woman in a relationship with a guy she doesn’t realize is gay, even though the thing he likes best is anal stimulation…
ROCK: Right – which doesn’t make you gay, by the way.
GROSS: …Which doesn’t make you gay. And I’m trying to keep this all radio-friendly.
ROCK: Right.
GROSS: So there’s a few graphic jokes that I can’t describe on the radio.
ROCK: Right, right, right.
GROSS: And one that ends up being kind of cruel, even though it’s played for comedy – and let me explain what made me uncomfortable. There’s still so many people who think that gay male sex is icky or disgusting. And I’m afraid that this is possibly a way of mocking gay sex without it being gay sex because it’s a woman who’s doing the stimulation.
ROCK: Right.
GROSS: I thought this had the potential of playing into that pre-existing phobia and having people laugh on a different level – you know what I mean? – on a level of, like, oh, ick. That’s really disgusting, and gay men do that, too.
ROCK: I’m going to say about four or five women told me similar stories.
GROSS: Really?
ROCK: Yeah. And, yeah, that’s how jokes happen. It’s never like one person or two. It’s like you got to hear it a few times when you do stuff like that, or else, you know, you’re just being mean. So I’d heard stories about stuff like this. And I don’t know. That’s all – that’s all I got. I don’t think – I – you know, I – you know, I feel your pain, but I’ve never thought about any joke or anything like that deeply.
GROSS: Do you think I’m overreacting?
ROCK: I mean, you’re Terry Gross. So, I mean, it’s your job to analyze this and, you know, fight the good fight and – you know. But, you know, it’s – I’m probably – I’m the only – I might be the only black comedian the country that hasn’t gay-bashed ever.
GROSS: Well, that’s the thing. I…ROCK: (Laughter). I…
GROSS: No, but that’s the thing. I admire you for not doing that. But…
ROCK: I’m like – like, ever – like, like, ever. I’m…
GROSS: People are so used to gay bashing jokes in comedy. It’s such a common thing. I think that’s why…
ROCK: It’s not a common thing. It’s like…
GROSS: Gay bashing and comedy?
ROCK: It’s – name two comedians that do it right now.
GROSS: Oh, I’ve heard so many jokes.
ROCK: Give me two.
GROSS: Oh, I’m not good at remembering things.
ROCK: If somebody asked you – you say something happens all the time. And then somebody says, give me two – they didn’t say, give me 10; they said, give me two…
GROSS: No. OK, I will refer you to…
ROCK: …You’re probably wrong, right?
Okay. So…I have a few thoughts.
As many of you already know and remember, I wrote a pretty detailed essay on Black Comedians and homophobia in their acts. If Chris Rock asked me to give him two examples, I would point to two comedians in the film he was promoting in the interview itself: Tracy Morgan and Kevin Hart. Both comedians have joked onstage that being gay was gross or an absolute deal-breaker when it comes to their own children.
Tracy Morgan even admitted ONSTAGE that he would stab his own child just for being gay.
Isn’t it contradictory for Rock to admit in one moment that he is probably the only Black Comedian to never Gay Bash, but in the next minute say to the interviewer that she is wrong in her thinking that gay-bashing in comedy happens all the time.
How can these two realities exist?
That’s like me saying, “I’m probably the only black man in American to never be harassed by the police but, Terry Gross, you’re wrong in saying police harassment of black men happens all the time!”
Again, I’ve seen Top Five. I didn’t get the sense that Rock was making fun of gay people just to be hateful or exploit the audiences inherent prejudices to just for the joke. At least I didn’t when I was watching it.
Now that I think about it, it was pretty borderline offensive when you step back and see the forest for the trees.
Thinking about other moments of the film, gay phobia is present throughout.
In a completely separate storyline, a male character has a 3-way with two women. It’s portrayed as sexy, fun and adventurous. The twist occurs when another man enters the scene. Afterward the sex is portrayed as gross for comedy, all because there was another penis in the room. Two completely heterosexual penises mind you. Two naked men. How gross and traumatic. Laughter ensues.
Back to the interview:
GROSS: raising the question about where is the line? Like, the whole – that whole scene was about, like, where is the line between something being funny and something being, you know, bashing or stereotypical. But anyways…
ROCK: I mean, the line – I don’t know where the line is. The line – first of all, the line is like religion. Where’s the intent? It’s like in most religions, you’re taught that you’re not going to be judged by your actions; you’re going to be judged by your intent. So if your intent is to gay-bash, yes, you are a gay-basher, even when you don’t do it. And if your intent is to not, then it’s not. Now, it can still be offensive, but once you explain that to the person that made the mistake, you can pretty much be sure they will go back on that and try to rectify hurting you. Does this make sense? You know, I see stuff that I think’s a little racist, but I judge the person. I judge the person. I judge their other work. Well, OK, that guy – he just doesn’t know. Maybe I’ll say something next time I see him. But I don’t go to bash, or I don’t go to, oh, he’s racist.
Okay. So…I have a few thoughts.
Just because someone says something without the “intent” to be racist that doesn’t mean what they said isn’t racist. Or misogynistic. Or anti-Semitic. Or homophobic.
In many ways, I guess I agree that Gay is the new Black.
In this post-Obama, Trayvon Martin, Eric Garner society, saying anything remotely insensitive about black people instantly makes you the focus of a two-day barrage on Black Twitter and The Daily Show. This usually ends with a public apology statement being made.
Gay insensitivity on the other hand…silence…especially in comedy.
So on one hand, I agree with Terry Gross’ assessment of using the audiences internal homophobia for the sake of comedy. On top of that, Chris Rock’s causal dismissal of the mere thought that this was possible was a bit disappointing.
On the other hand, Rock is right that he has been mindful to avoid gay jokes in his standup acts over the years. I have never felt on-guard in the past when I saw Chris Rock on stage. Even after seeing, Top Five, I still believe he’s “one of the good guys.”
So I’m both conflicted and settled into realizing that this may just be the same-old-same.
This film made by many popular Caucasian comedians would be completely different in how the gay characters and gay situations were depicted. Not that white comedians and filmmakers don’t ever gay-bash in their work, but overall there is more of a balance in their work when it comes to depictions of homosexuality and gayness.
I will say that there are black exceptions. Comedians Key & Peele routinely make gay jokes but they nearly always feel inclusive, never as if these people are gross and not “normal.” They are just regular people.
Once the film is released, it will be interesting to see what the gay community overall thinks about the film, if they see it all.
After listening to the interview and hearing Chris Rock’s response, what are your thoughts on how he responded and gay jokes black film in general?
I plan on seeing the movie, but progress will be made when black films have a character who happens to be gay without having to go through the D.L phase, etc etc.
Based on this article, I think Chris is full of shit but I will still see the movie. If for no other reason but to make my own decision after seeing the film. BUT…I do think homophobia used for laughs is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO played out like twerking and rap videos with strippers, songs about strippers, etc…but who am I? LOL
Of course, I am another one who is going to wait to see the film before I decide if I was offended or not.
BUT If we talking about the same Chris Rock who hosted SNL a few weeks back and did the ultra-risque opening about 911, the Marathon bombings, and never stepping foot in the new tower to positive review, I trust him to walk that same margin of allowable offense that Seth McFarland & Family Guy gets with its viewers. Gays and transgendered people have to realize that being equal & mainstreamed means becoming the butt of some dumb comedian’s jokes. And in knowing that, some of us need to learn how to laugh at ourselves and stop taking everything so seriously. After 20 years of gay sex participation, I still find certain things about doing it and those who do it awkwardly funny and if Chris or any hetero comedian can inoffensively discuss or portray those matters and make me laugh and/or think hard, i’m all for it…..
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Totally agree. That was a perfect example with Seth. If gays want to be treated like everyone else, they have to be made fun of like everyone else. Seth offends EVERYBODY so it’s not like anyone particular group is put on blast constantly.
There are some times when sex, hetero or homo, does look silly. How many times have we been to the zoo or just out and about and caught the zebras or Snowball II getting it in and laughed? lol Two (or more if that’s your thing, I ain’t even mad) people in particularly vulnerable positions and situation is fuel for some comedy.
As long as there are no slurs, I’m fine with it.
Chris is known for not going for the typical joke. I look forward to seeing the film because I like his style of comedy.
I will hold my final judgments until I see the movie, but his response to her concerns wreaked of willful ignorance. “Intent” vs. “action?” I’m disappointed in him, personally. I tend to agree with most of his views but can’t cosign this one.
As for wanting equality and being the butt of jokes, I agree that it comes with the territory. But how the joke is told and what the punchline is supposed to be is what differentiates offensive vs. funny.
…and in all fairness, I am someone who trusts a veteran A list comedian like Chris Rock to walk that line with his normal impunity and get it right. He knows all to well what can happen if a entire community turns on a comedian #careerover
Don’t be fooled and don’t forget Rock was Tracy Morgan’s biggest defender.
Going back to what you said about black men and the police,it’s kind of like when white people hear black people say the police unfairly profile and harass black men.They never experience it,or even observe it, and never have to worry about it,so when someone complains about it ,they don’t quite see where the potential offense is coming from.
A lot of people are too removed from the issue to understand where insensitivity might be perceived,especially if they aren’t participating in outright abuse or saying “faggot’ or anything like that.
He probably thinks gay-bashing happens in comedy,just not often ,which we know isn’t true.But like I say,it’s not something that would stand out to him or affect him so he may be ignorant to the frequency (and severity) of those jokes.
For what it’s worth,I don’t think he was trying to be intolerant,he just seems more unaware.
To be honest true comedians have no filter. Have you seen any of the roasts Richard Pryor use to to back in the day. I’m not saying its right but comedians will use any material necessary to get people to laugh. It’s a certain freedom they get that no one else has.