I watch Star Trek: Discovery and something occurred to me as actor Wilson Cruz lovingly kissed the White gay man that (rightfully) destroyed Kevin Spacy’s career: He’s a Gay White Man of Color.
Cruz is a prime example of what Octavius Williams speaks about often: White Gay Culture overpowers almost everything Gay in its’ path, especially when it comes to men.
When I look at Cruz, I don’t see a Latino gay man. I see a tan gay White man. He’s still a great representative to the community, but you could instantly change the name and photos on ALL his social media accounts with a random White man and said White man would never be accused of cultural appropriation.
This made me wonder: Where are the notable Black gay men who I actually relate to and identify as BLACK MEN just like me?
As much as I love the dude, Karamo Brown is clearly a gay White man.
As much as he’s done for himself and others, RuPaul is still a gay White man to me.
As intelligent and well written as he is, Jonathan Capehart is a gay White man to me.
Frank Ocean started off Black and crying in a used Nissan Maxima over the loss of a DL dude (a story that every Black gay man can relate to), but once he came Out, he slowly morphed into a White gay twink.
No matter how much he defends Black culture on CNN, I still can’t help but view Don Lemon as a White gay man.
Even Jussie Smollett gives me entitled White gay man after his performance on Good Morning America.
By contrast, Lena Waithe gives me nothing but GAY BLACK WOMAN!
It’s not because she rocks fitted caps and chains. It’s because everything about her work and aura gives off unadulterated Blackness. She feels like a genuine product of our culture, struggle and lineage.
Wanda Sykes gives me gay Black woman. No matter how White her wife is, she looks and acts like she could be any of our cool Black aunts.
The list goes on: Meshell Ndegeocello, Sheryl Swoopes, Dee Rees, Tracy Chapman, Young M.A….They all remained Black after coming Out.
The men, not so much. Jason Collins, Michael Sam, Derrick Gordon, Brandon Davis…the list goes on.
There are a couple exceptions for the men, though. Rapper iLoveMakonnen is still very much a Black man even while dating a overly tatted White man.
Chance the Rapper’s younger brother, Taylor Bennett, came out as bisexual and still maintains his Blackness. But I would argue that he doesn’t live his life as a Black gay man. His most recent IG posts show him in loving heteronormal family photos with his new baby and the boy’s mother.
The majority of men of color that come out as Gay and live as Out gay men seem to become bland, whitewashed and removed of all Black/Latino culture, replaced with Caucasian Stepford Househusbands.
Am I wrong in this observation?
They all seen to be in The Sunken Place. I guess if there were a White gay equivalent to The Sunken Place, it would likely be called The Glory Hole.
That’s where they are. The Glory Hole.
Whew!! This post just gave me flashbacks of what originally brought me to Cypher Avenue. It all started with a bold statement of genuine interest.
I am going to have to call BS on this White Gay Men of Color shit. Regardless, all of the Black men in particular and the gay men of color, in general, are still and forever will be people of color, by virtue of physical appearance alone. I also think that you are limited in your ideas of Blackness, seems like a narrow focus of what constitutes black presentation?
I don't know any of these men personally but I don't think they are divorced from their black identity. I am friends with Capehart on FB and in some ancillary social circles and he is regularly engaged in Blackness, from the black journalist groups for which he is a member to the black reporters and journalists that are apart of his world. In many ways, he performs his blackness every day, despite his gayness and in more influential ways than other black gay men. I don't think all of these brothers are in the Glory Hole Place. Its just different construction of blackness.
I see what @Nick Delmacy is saying.
It's not that they are not Black anymore. It's that from the outside going by social media, they appear to be loving a nice gay white guy life. I don't relate to any of them. I haven't seen Karamo's season of The Real World since its initial run but I was a fan then because I identified with him. There were hardly any masculine Black gay out men on TV then. I was intrigued. Fast forward a few years and….I don't see what I saw then with him and what he seems to project now. But good for him.
Even with Shaun T, who I was mesmerized with, I did feel like "well damn" when his light bright behind ended up with some blue eyed blonde Ken doll boyfriend and subsequent husband.
All these men are Black, first and foremost. But I think that they definitely don't project Black Gay Culture in the way that I think the black females represent it and it's not even that they have white men on their face arms. I would say that the Hot Gay Dads give me BGC. Milan Christopher gives me BGC. These article guys don't.
This mutahfukin astute observation post here….:lawd::whew:
I have a feeling within the year we can add blue bubble vest Deray McKesson to the list.
Cosign. But, I will say that I 'get' why they're 'passing'. In all fairness, a visible platform of black gay men who go against the images we often complain about on here, doesn't exist. Those black guys go live their lives quietly in Discreet City, USA. Thus, we end up with a bunch of isolated blk guys ostracized by the greater blk community, seeking solace where they're at least accepted, even if not celebrated. The reason why we know these men is because they operate in the gay mainstream world.
As for the women, (I fux w Lena Waithe tough because she is unapologetically black and doesn't feel the need to chirp about how she just 'happens to be blk' to make sure no white ppl in the room face a moment of discomfort), we can't ignore the fact that blk ppl typically have a much easier time w lesbains than they do gays. That obvs leads to fewer of them feeling like they're forced to choose the lesser of two evils when it comes to 'community'.
Y'all know society ain't gone accept no two 50 cent looking dudes holding hands and walking the red carpet at the Espy awards. We gotta go white to soften the blow a lil bit. Besides, I don't even know of one famous black gay dude who reminds me of home let alone two that could possibly date and be interested in each other. Let's not forget that most of the "50 Cent" type dudes DL and don't wanna post pictures to their instagram cuddled up in a Wal-Mart type studio pic.
Whew! Too much to take in. Very, very well written though and brings up some very good points … most of which I agree with. I even notice my black friends who date white guys or hang out with white guys from work. They really aren’t my friends anymore. They change to the point where I don’t like them or like associating with them. they become an instant Kardashian or whatever else is trending in white culture. And they always mysteriously either become alcoholics or hooked on some serious drugs.
Pay attention. You see how these white people fucked up Kanye
Creepy. Well, I will forever like Black dick & don't want caucasity twink benefits
<!—->
SB3 said:
↑
All of this.
At any rate, this isn't any different than hetero-black folks who are living ignorantly blissful lives in white spaces.
SB3 hit the nail on the head though, masculine sgl black men who live black-cultured lives do not have a place of refuge when they come out to the public. Our communities don't want us and neither do white folks.
I truly think black gay men have it the hardest in this country.
<!—->
Jai said:
↑
You a fewl! :heh:
<!—->I've mentioned before how this is an obvious issue for leading male actors and singers whose careers are heavily based on black women lusting after them, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't think this should be a lot less of an issue for ppl ouside of entertainment. Even Don Lemon, though a public personality, wouldn't be anymore banned by the blacks for dating black instead of being with his white bf. And even though a big deal athlete like Lebron or Steph whose endorsement deals would be affected by the lack of blk support, I'd easily lump Jason Collins in with the Don Lemons and multiple behind the scenes music and entertainment execs who neither gain or lose by dating blk. Basically, if no one is REALLY interested in sleeping with you, then you're good.
RolandG said:
↑
It’s funny. Don lemon was on red table talk with Jada and a constantly bewildered looking willow … he said black men would not date him … just wanted fun and nothing serious.
I find that a lot of black guys who date white men, The brothers are not checking for.
<!—->
@yahoo.com said:
↑
While I don't know Don personally, I have good friends in Atlanta and NYC who knew/know him well. When they tell me that Don was not paying attention to or checking for Brothas, I trust their judgment 100%.
<!—->
Sean P said:
↑
This ^. Ain't NOBODY buying what Don is selling!
<!—->
@yahoo.com said:
↑
I think (and am tired of) that whole "blk men aren't/weren't into me because I wasn't 'urban' enough" stance is bs. Again, I think a lot of them end up dating within that white gay world because of their feelins of ostracism from the 'blk gay' world of Derek J and Miss Lawrence. But admit and call it that and be happy w the one who loves you back, regardless of his race. Cut the shyts w the whole 'I wasn't 'blk enough' spiel. Everyone living this life knows the tired 'blk isnt a monolith' mantra all ready. For every 'dl thug' there's an everyday blk joe just living life looking for the same. Don't try to rewrite reality just because you didn't meet and fall in love w one.
And not to ignore the pink elephants, MANY of the guys who date white AREN'T being checked for by the blks. But that's because many of them have nothing in common w the average blk man outside of complexion. As I've said plenty of times over the years, I'd have 0 hangups dating a white man if we worked. The issue would surface when they realize that I'm not a blk gay man who's remotely willing to always operate in a white gay social world. If you're down to come kick it w me and my 90% blk friends, and my 120% 'urban' azz blk cuzzins at the fam reunion this weekend, then we might be able to talk. But waaay too many of these blk guys' entire social circles revolve around whiteness.
<!—->
SB3 said:
↑
And tho I stand by what I said about Don, I'm in no way implying that he's not someone bag-worthy. He, and Jason, are handsome, extremely successful men. Just because women aren't throwing their panties at you doesn't mean you're not a more than bag-worthy guy.
ASE
As a geeky type guy who has exclusively been in relationships with Black men, I don't buy that no one was interested in Don Lemon. Don Lemon was probably trying to find an exact Black contemporary and didn't want to lower his "standards" or compromise and work with a brotha. Don is attractive. He seems stable. When he came out, my ears perked up. I would date the type of guy he is.
As Y'all know I have tasted the rainbow. If someone non Black and I have mutual interest in each other andiI'm in a space where I'm open to romance, I'm going for it. Like @SB3 said they just have to understand that I'm a Black man they are going to be around my country Black saddity bourgeois family two times a year. My folks are used to non Black people in the fam but they haven't seen me in dating mode since I came out to them but if anyone in my fam said something slick, I'll call them out and then we're packing up and leaving. And I am ok with hanging out with their peeps but I expect the same in return if I'm being disrespected.
That said I support people trying Something New if they have honest to goodness tried to date Black before and it didn't work. I'd rather people be booed up and happy instead of miserable because they exclusively date from one pond. As was discussed before with successful Black straight women looking for successful Black men, there's not a 1:1 ratio for them so not all of these sistas gonna get their 6 figure, master degreeed, chocolate prince so they either need to cast a wider net or be OK with that blue collar worker and get the Tyler Perry rom com experience they are used to seeing but not experiencing.
<!—->
ControlledXaos said:
↑
Can we get a working definition and example of what exactly is black gay (men) culture as articulated in these posts? What is a real life example of this person?
I also think we should point out that people date folks who are in their particular social circle, where they live and work. I suspect some of y’all would be side eying the black man who makes attempts to over compensate for social status differences. And Vice versa. Aka, why is this uppity negro who doesn’t speak or sound like me interested, even when the interest is genuine. I will agree, however that a lot of this stems from levels of openess. The black gay cultured men haven’t come out publicly in numbers that could warrant protection and refuge. We clearly need some pioneers.
<!—->
BlackguyExecutive said:
↑
Cut it out! You're a blk gay US diplomat! You arldy know you're not gonna be walking into a room full of blk gays most days. And it's probably likely that ur not gonna be open to a guy who works as a bartender while trying to open his own dance school. Even with as much sense as I can sometimes make here on these boards, there will always be a 'lane' of guys whod never consider or entertain me for more than just a smash. Let alone the greater blk gay world. Ijs.
<!—->
SB3 said:
↑
Yes. That is the point I was trying to make. All of the men cited here are not you're everyday run of the mill black gay man. They are all celebrities of sorts. I suspect there is a lot more black on black love and black gay cultured men out in the universe there are simply not famous nor trying to become famous. As far as identifying and representation, we certainly need brave….
Although opening a dance school seems awesome!
<!—->
BlackguyExecutive said:
↑
That's just what I do man. I think many guys on here lose sight of the fact that we all come from diff backgrounds. I'm a theatre/dancer kiddo and I have opinions too man. Send ur kid to my school and they might make it 'big'.
<!—->my takeaway from this thread is simply an affirmation that blk ppl must discuss class more often. it def shapes how one experiences and expresses their blkness. i think if you came expecting a more nuanced perspective on blk celebrity and gender politics, you may feel disappointed.
reading these responses feels like watching a movie scene where blk custodians and the mailroom clerk crack on the new blk hire, VP of marketing–the only blk person in management–at the firm they service. they immediately question his authenticity.
while the thread lacks all kinds of nuance, there is validity to the belief that blk ppl historically have had to pay a price–their identity–to enter and maintain their place in white spaces. unfortunately, i think many explanations here peddled in simple uncle tom tropes which seem unfair to the successful gay blk men mentioned above.
the dominant expression of blk american masculinity is a kind of working class aloof bravado. it's seen as the most authentic blk male experience. many blk men who have a slightly to completely different male expression due to the combination of their other identities–class, sexuality, ethnicity, educational attainnent, etc–contend with this cultural expectation in some way on the daily.
blk ppl need everybody, from the ratchet to uppity negro. we can't afford to throw anybody away or dismiss them as not (blk) enough. there's a place for all of us. white supremacy will have us thinking poor blks don't work hard enough and that successful blks reject their blkness. i'm just rooting for everybody blk.
BlackguyExecutive said:
↑
<!—->
BlackguyExecutive said:
↑
When you ask these "What really is Black Culture" questions I feel like you're either trolling us or you've really been outside of the United States and around those foo-foo french Black folks too long and genuinely have no idea.
Personally for me, real life examples of Black gay culture that has been visible include:
Quincy LeNear Gossfield and husband Deondray Gossfield
Timothy Ware and husband Eugene Barry Hill
Octavius Terry-Sims and husband Jamal Terry-Sims
Juan and Gee Session-Smalls
These aren't high profile celebs, but they provide examples. And, as noted in the original post, many of the instagram pages of celebrity lesbian women of color look EXACTLY like these Black gay men I listed here.
I'm not saying that Black culture can't include privilege and a lavish 'high cultured' lifestyle that many of the celebrity black gay men project, but I do find it odd that you could instantly change the name and photos on ALL their social media accounts with random White men and said White men would never be accused of cultural appropriation.
<!—->
machoBLKnerd said:
↑
How tho Sway? No one threw Jack n Jill under any busses. What part of 'blackness' isn't clear and understood?
<!—->
BlackguyExecutive said:
↑
I want to call bullshit on the notion that celebrity Black men can't maintain their Black culture and identity. If you want, I can list hundreds of examples of Black men who are more wealthy and more famous than any Black gay man you can name…men who succeed in board rooms and the White House, yet still have a tight grasp on Black culture and identity that almost all little black kids could relate to and see themselves in…
Hell, the Obamas were "blacker" than all of these Black gay men and they had death threats daily for being who they were.
Oprah is richer, blacker and gayer than all of us combined.
<!—->
Nick Delmacy said:
↑
I recognize that we need to more often say “cultureS” and “populationS” (plural) because there is no one black culture or population but an intersection of sets. For example, I know little of Louisiana/creole culture and zydeco just sounds like Jamaican ska with accordions to me, but I can recognize both zydeco and ska as authentic black music forms as much as the Mississippi blues I grew up listening to at my grandmother’s house.
That being said, these days I don’t care if some “hi falutin’” black gay (celebrity, corporate) has a white partner, listens to X black music, etc. as long as you are your authentic self as an individual. What I really hate, though, is Super-Black-Talking gays like Jussie Smollett (or straight celebs like OJ and Michael Jackson) who rediscover blackness when law enforcement troubles arise; or two-faced politicos like Johnathan Capehart who talk all this woke shit on TV then they did or supported things that actually fucked over black people; such as Capehart talking black shit on MSNBC and it turns out that nigga was part of Team Bloomberg during NYC’s “Stop and Frisk” era of black male civil rights violations.
This whole discussion:
:feedme:
<!—->
Nick Delmacy said:
↑
I will certainly concede your points. I think I just get weary when I see black peoples perceived blackness as being downplayed because they don't fit in some arbitrary standard of blackness.
<!—->
Nick Delmacy said:
↑
I will say that my experience with black people is different but I think that it is still an authentically black experience. My particular social circles have a lot of white faces but I have cultivated a black community for which I frequently engage. My circle includes folks from the Divine 9 to black professional associations, to my black ass family in Florida. We shouldn't discount people for having different experiences. Because I know all too well, I am a highly educated, diplomat, service member, who has a command of the Queen's English but to some, I am most definitely still a Ni*****.
<!—->
BlackguyExecutive said:
↑
Again, the original post wasn't about you but you may have felt like it was. I don't know what you project on social media or to the general public so I can't comment on that. If you are authentically yourself amongst all those White faces, and not trying to make them comfortable by being more like them, that's awesome.
All I'm saying is based on what many of the Out black gay men in the media have projected on social media and on television about their lives in general, I personally only see an Advocate and GLAAD Caucasian Gay Approved cultural life experience from these men. I can't relate to that. Props for them, but I don't identify with them on a cultural level.
You can love skiing at cabins, wine & cheese parties and going to the theater and still maintain your Gay Blackness. But you can also not.
I actually think we need more Black cultural elites in the media. We could use a little more of The Bold, The Black, The Beautiful in the world. High on Excellence & Achievement but still Black AF.
<!—->
Nick Delmacy said:
↑
I don't take things personally on the internet. You are right, we need more black media for sure and more black elites who occupy space in the mainstream. HRC, GLAAD, OUT, The Advocate are all staples of elite white gayness, they are also the gatekeepers, narrative directors, and orchestrators of Gayness which I think is different from Blackness for sure and black gayness doesn't even come up in mainstream discussion. Thanks for the interesting thread though, this reminded me of some old school Cypher Avenue Content that challenges everyone's perspective even the lurkers who are reading this with side-eyes and judgment but won't type anything. I see y'all.
<!—->
Nick Delmacy said:
↑
Not knowing where to jump into this lively popping thread, Im glad this part was stated. Because after reading all the comments it seems many of the responses were taken more personal than what the actual thread implied. Whether anyone want to admit it or not.
Nick Delmacy said:
↑
True and its unfortunate. But as we all know of course this "problem" is so larger than what we could ever address in a thread post, because now your going into black culture and black male gay acceptance territory. We all know that there are many, MANY black gay men in media that masculine black gay men would be able to identify with if they in fact were open about it. Unfortunately they remain not OUT probably because they are active in black culture a la entertainment, music, black media, etc and due to the stigma and fear they have they just won't be open. It seems like the "gay white men of color" examples you used were probably never really active in black culture to begin with. Therefore when you see black gay men open / loud and proud in media all you see is the Dons, Karamos, etc. I feel like if the perspective changed in our black culture, you would see more "gay BLACK men of color". Something we know already just further reiterated.
Nick Delmacy said:
↑
Going back to examining this thread on a personal level, I can appreciate about myself that Im this guy ^^
I am completely equal opportunity in who I deal with. All races can be secy to me as long as dude is indeed sexy. If I were to imagine my "perfect" partner I would love for him to be black like me, but that would probably fall number 5 or even later on the list. However, I could never relate to the "gay white man of color" and not sure even where that comes from. If I were to get into anything long term with another race or someone white (its actually highly likely I will based on recent experiences) my gay blackness is solidified.
All in all tho, Im with ya. It would be great to see more black gay men in popular media that seem to love on each other and also be relatable. Maybe one day we will.
Reading this turns me into a black woman. I know they say you love who you love, and in a way you can't tell someone who they should love, BUT it would be nice to see black gay on black gay love. Shouts out to those four or five Instagram pages I follow that shows such.
I personally believe if you are dating someone white and your whole circle revolve around them and their white counterparts and you don't indoctrinate them into your culture as well as you being indoctrinated into their culture, then you have some personal reflection to do on yourself. If my whole circle of friends are majority blacks and I start dating some white guy and my whole circle becomes white, then I need to do some self evaluation on myself. And yes it's just that simple. You should be apart of each other lives. We all know what this article is talking about and most of us have seen it. It's pretty simple, you should be apart of each other lives. You should know each other culture. And we all know what black culture looks and feel like. So why are some of these comments on here seems like they are confuse with what black culture looks and feel like? Some of you guys and your comments are a trip. I think interracial relationships can be a good thing if both parties are indoctrinated into each other culture. Those blacks that are in interracial relationships and don't indoctrinate there partners into there culture, pass up a good opportunity to show their partners and their white counterparts, not all the stereo types about black are true. They have a unique chance to bridge a gap and allow two different races to get to know each other.
This is an interesting topic. I only read like three quarters of the first post, and I'm very intrigued. I'm just gonna put a doorstop on it right here, and offer my opinion/commentary later. BRB. lol.
Not the glory hole LOL. I wasn't expecting that ending.
:patrice:
Okay, so I read this post, and instead of offering my opinion, (which I agree with most of it) I'm just gonna link you to a damn near identical thread I made recently.
Black gay men: Acting white vs. whitewashed