Question Of The Week: Why Do Gay Men Degrade Other Men By Referring To Them As Females?
I noticed something last week amongst gay men when viewing their conversations online via social media. Anytime one gay dude or dudes wanted to degrade another man, they would refer to said man as a female. “She”, “her” and “girl” were used towards the man in question, if one did not agree with his opinions or actions.
Why is it that the go to insult by some gay men towards other gay men is to refer to them in the female sense? Is it me or does this come off as messy, immature and effeminate? Is this a part of the gay cultural norm where this type of degrading is just subconscious “gay habit” and passes as acceptable?
What’s even more puzzling to me is that gay men who exhibit this behavior almost always tend to be feminine…#WTH
It’s a negative learned behavior amongst that circle that uses it … If you asked one of them why they used the term I can bet they wouldn’t have a valid response … You call him a girl, but you are a full blown fem, emulating female characteristics …. So you want to be female like yet you insult someone in the same vein in which you are trying to be…. Puzzling to my mind!
It’s the homo version of when straight guys say “that’s gay”.
Say what now?
Straight guys say something or someone is “gay” to mean they are less than the proper standard, same applies to a gay man who calls his fellow “she” or “queen”. The target is being called less than he should be, which in both cases means less than a man.
Interesting…so what do you think about men like @Hannibal whose friendship circle refer to each other as females?
I hear what you are saying, Ocky, and I think Cypher Avenue does a great job of providing a forum for expressing a black masculinist perspective on gay culture (you know I post your posts on Facebook constantly). And I don’t doubt that you do know that camp exists. But I don’t understand how you (or other readers) can really say you know the history, and still be asking this question about why gay men use feminine terminology to refer to each other. Not only that, you use the term “degrade” to refer to this kind of camp talk, but if you really know the history, you know that it is empowering, not degrading. And I have to disagree about how there’s no option to be gay outside of camp, ballroom, and drag culture. You yourself are a living example of another way to be gay. Even gay white male “clones” in the 1970s were finding a way to be gay that was not about camp, drag, or ballroom culture. There’s a more-or-less infinite number of ways to be gay. Cypher Avenue chronicles one way. The marriage equality movement is about another way. Dykes on Bikes is about another way. All these ways are valid and all of them meet the needs of different members of the community.
HA…thanks for reposting and linking our posts…to answer the question;
It’s because I want and would hope that we can rethink and examine why we are using and addressing others in this manner. Just because it’s “history” or the “gay cultural norm” that doesn’t mean it’s correct or incorrect for that matter. I just feel accepting the gay status quo and not questioning and attempting to understand purpose is troubling and causes stagnation and non-growth.
Also I may be “another way to be gay”; however my way of simply existing most of the time is negatively viewed and rejected by mainstream gay. I’m acting straight, DL, butch, hiding, or attempting to blend in…if I don’t subscribe to the traditional gay narrative.
It’s great to rethink and examine, but you have to do it in a context. A lot of research and writing has been done on camp, including camp language and gay men’s use of feminine terminology to refer to each other. So if you want to rethink and examine, it’s fine to start from your own direct experience, but at a certain point you have to consider what people who have studied the issue have already said about it.
I think you are not giving yourself enough credit or power when you say that your masculinist approach to black gay existence is rejected by “mainstream gay” culture. You are implying that anything you DON’T identify with is “mainstream gay,” and what you DO identify with is somehow marginal. F***that sh**!!! Start from the assumption that you represent a valid and viable segment of the community. I know you believe that, or you would not have started Cypher Avenue.
In the grand scheme of things, it boils down to a simple matter of opinion as to the “why” and “intent” of feminine terminology directed towards another man. I don’t think there is a valid reason or explanation behind it, just because there are SO MANY explanations, each valid in it’s own way. Some people don’t mind it, some people love it, personally I can’t stand the shit. Im not a chick so dont refer to me as “She”, “Miss Thing” or any of that shit. I have a dick not a vag’. My distaste for the reference is not because I think women are any less than, it’s simply because I’m a DUDE, refer to me as such. This is the same argument that people who routinely use the terms “nigga” and “bitch” utilize to validate themselves. “It’s a term of endearment”, “It’s empowering because it was used so negatively before, now we can take control of the word”. Umm, sorry but just because a group of people turn a negative word to something “positive” among THEMSELVES doesn’t mean that the creators of said word don’t still take it in it’s orig negative context. Gender distinguishing is not some imaginary thing, men and women are physically different. There’s nothing wrong with maintaining that difference. If a gay dude wants to refer to himself and company as “Gurl”, go right ahead, my dude, but be respectful of those that don’t like it, and be prepared for the gas face from people (gay AND/OR str8) that refuse to understand the “logic” behind it.
Sounds like he uses it in a tounge-in-cheek type of way.Sounds like the same manner in which a black person might say to others of his race “ya’ll negros…” or ” you niggas” when they’re laughing and playing.
Thats not an accurate statement. I don’t call another gay man girl to say he is less than me.
How would you say you use it?
Me and some of my friends will jokingly refer to each other as girl *shrugg*
Why?
I don’t know really. It’s just funny to us I guess.
Its a societal norm that reflects internalized patriarchy, in which all humans associate the masculine with the ideal and the feminine with the negative. Its not exclusive that gay men do it, all people do it. Its reflected in statements like “grow a pair” etc. Its also been used as a subversion tactic in which gay men reclaim that feminine by referring to each other intimately by things like girl etc. The better question is why marginalized people consistently recreate barriers for other marginalized identities when ultimately, we are facing the same barriers?
From me personally, being referred to as girl is not a sign of disrespect. Me and my friends do it all ths time, but we are all feminine men.
I would not appreciate a “straight” person saying it but women do it all the time with gay men.
Its about reclaiming a word that was once used to demean us. The same way black people use the word nigger/nigga.
I hear what you are saying but at the end of the day effeminate men are still men. What’s wrong with maleness that amongst friends it cant be acknowledged? Does claiming one’s femininity equal degrading one’s masculinity?
For me personally no. Me and my circle of friends have been in the gym lifting weights saying “girl, child,,Mrs. Thing”. lol. Its not about us rejecting our masculinity or maleness, its just we are comfortable and making jokes.
If I was with a more masculine gay man I would respect their decision to not be acknowledged that way.
Do you find hat women referring to one another as bitches and men as nigger/nigga offensive?
I can’t speak for anyone else, but I personally find it sickening when dudes call each other “nigga” and girls call each other “bitches”. For me, it’s one of those things where if you want someone else to start seeing you in a different (more positive) light, then start referring to yourself as such. Nobody respects a bitch and this country has historically hated niggaz, so why am I gonna identify with either?
@Ishmal Yes to some extent and or the context that it’s being used in. I HATE HATE seeing “nigga” “niggas be like” “bitches be like” via twitter and facebook OMG I hate it!
That is a very good question. Males calling one another by female terms is as endemic to the gay culture as black people using the n word. I came out in college and remember it being something funny that the older circle of gays did very casually esp when gossiping or telling stories.I have come to see it as gay men affirming & confirming female energy in a given situation. Cant say its a positive thing, but more of an is what is thing. We also have a tendency to refer to masculine acting females as “boy”. I will say this: any gay/bisexual man that corrects being called that gets the instant respect of not being referred to in those terms from me, but personally it does not bother me because I am secure enough in the manhood & sexuality to know I am not a female.
First off, I’ll preface by saying that my post refers only to using feminine terms or slurs as an attack, not being used jokingly among friends. Though few things irritate me more than being called bitch or girl (and thankfully, my friends generally don’t do that).
I think it really comes down to the value we place on masculinity, and the idea that bringing a man down to a female level is somehow putting them in their place. And though feminine gays have their own spin on this by calling a dude “girl” or “queen”, keep in mind masculine men (including straight men) functionally do the same thing, they just usually limit it to “bitch” or “pussy”. Both are used as a means to take away someones masculinity, and thus their power.
Coming from an extra fem dude, I think it also has the effect of saying “you’re not better than me” (which is probably why it doesn’t come off as hypocritical in their eyes). And honestly, black culture places a greater value on masculinity, mainly due to it being one of the few remnants of power we like to hold onto in a society where our power is often limited. I think this is why black gays tend to use it against each other so frequently. When your societal power is limited, it stings a bit more to have what little power you’ve got attacked, even if just for a moment.
I have to disagree with you. When I call my bff “girl” or say”child” to my straight older brother, I’m not trying to assault their manhood or debase their maleness…Im simply saying what’s up.
If you take offense to it, thats your prerogitive. However the intent is not to offend.
“First off, I’ll preface by saying that my post refers only to using feminine terms or slurs as an attack, not being used jokingly among friends.”
I guess my preface failed 🙁
I did… my apologies
No worries! I would happily hug or fist-bump you in reconciliation (whichever you prefer).
You guys really need to listen to Ishmael on this. He is the one who knows how and why gay men use feminine terms to refer to each other in some settings. It is an aspect of gay culture referred to as “camp.” It has a very long history, hundreds of years long, in Europe, North American, and throughout the gay world. Some may think it is negative, but in fact, as some commentators have said above, historically it is about reclaiming stigmatizing language in an empowering way. This is pretty much the polar opposite of the kind of black gay culture of masculinity that Cypher Avenue mostly celebrates. And that’s fine. But you guys should really learn more about the history of gay camp language, literature, culture, aesthetics, and sensibility, just as a matter of being well informed on the full range of gay history, even if it is not a part of the culture that you personally identify with. A good way to start is by watching the film “Paris Is Burning” and as much RuPaul’s Drag Race as you can stomach.
Without going into a long diatribe; we don’t really have a choice but to already know about this “history” because the images and narratives like camp, Paris is Burning and Drag Race have been crammed into the psyche of Gay Culture for decades to the point that is synonymous to what gay/homosexuality is. To those on the outside looking in and those who live inside a gay bubble…there isn’t any other way to be “gay” outside of camp, ballroom and drag culture. I feel that Cypher Avenue is a much needed albeit small counter balance to this.
I’m sure this has already been mentioned but Gay Men calling other Gay Men the female gender is not just a negative thing to gays. They casually do it all the time, even to their friends. “She”, “Her”, “Girl”, “Ma’am”…it can be heard by gay men all the time.
I’ve also heard straight men call each other Bitch, but never in a positive way…”You a Bitch-Ass!”, “Stop acting like a little Bitch!”
But gays def do it more…It’s a shame. They claim to be proud men but don’t mind being called women. Not that being associated with women is that damning, its just…I’ve seen light skinned guys jokingly called “white boy” amongst their black friends and most of the time they don’t like it. But gay men seem not to mind.
To each his own is what I say…All I can do it to check a person if they ever try to do it to me.
Question, are you more offended by a gay man saying “hey girl” to you or by your straight buddy saying “you my niggah”?
To be honest, I’m offended by both. But there’s something emasculating about being casually called a “girl” by a gay dude. Because my manhood/gender comes before my race in my self identification, I’d say that being called a female is more offensive to me.
I guess I dont understand the difference between the 2 offense. To question my intelligence is the same to me as questioning my masculinity.
Which is why I said they were both offensive. If we were both in a restaurant and the server came over and I loudly said to you, “Miss Thang, what are you gonna get, Gurl?” Would you not even be a little bit embarrassed and/or offended?
Lol. I have had that happen to me actually and I, being a fem guy, responded “Girl what are you drink specials?”
I wasn’t offended nor embarrassed because our conversation had nothing to do with anyone else in the establishment.
I would understand a masculine guy feeling some sort of way about it, thats a personal preference.
I guess I don’t underatand why something superficial like masculinity is held in higher regaurd then your intelligence.
Personal for me, masculinity is not superficial.
So masculinity has a direct impact on your morals, character and integrity?
Yeah I think that’s the disconnect: You view masculinity as an accessory to a person, like a pair of sneakers or T-Shirt. For a lot of men (both gay and straight) their manhood and masculinity is a part of who they are…Just like their race, their heritage, their culture…Even something as “superficial” as weight issues, disfigurement, receding hair, etc can greatly shape and define a person’s confidence and self esteem, thus affecting how they interact with others. Emasculating a man who loves being a man, can be very offensive to them. It sounds as if its not offensive to you and that is okay as well.
amen!!!
@Nick I don’t view masculinity as an accessory, I just don’t view it as a sacred pillar in my personality. I don’t agree with you equating it to intelligence, but I respect your opinion.
Well…I never equated masculinity to intelligence…you’re the only one to even bring it up…Read all of my comments in this thread and tell me where I even say the word Intelligence, it never happened…
@Nick you didn’t clearly state you equate the 2 but you stated that you are more offended by “girl” than “nigga” and that implies that you regard masculinity in higher standards than intellect.
Huh? I’m lost…what does the word “Nigga” have to do with intellect? That word has more to do with race, not education.
Most of these comments reflect societal power dynamics, structures that for whatever reason we’ve become complacent in as it is complicated by the general mass perception of things. As such, its about power and asserting dominance. Thats why people do it, they want a piece of the power to at least for a few moments what those who pass and benefit from the structure everyday feel. I acknowledge the practical benefits of such, but in the long term its not really sustainable. Reflected in the debate around bitch and nigga by those who arent gay. Power, everyone wants a piece
I think the best explanation Ive personally heard, is that it’s all abt tearing down gender roles. And, to the guys who use the terms, it’s often used in both insulting, and endearment. I guess…
Im making this statement hoping that it will be recieved and understood. Because I, my friends, and feminine men in general, use female terms to engage with each other does not mean we want to be a woman, thats a transsexual.
Transsexuals believe they were born the wrong gender.
Feminine men and transsexuals are not the same thing.
Y’all should listen to Ishmal, girl knows what she’s talking about 🙂
Thank you for this cool interaction…ok I don’t know how to ask this question without it sounding dumb…does it mean you want to be like females?
Not for me and I would say 95% of the gay men I know. When we use those words ts just an expression, our way of communicating. We dont want to actually be or treated like a woman/girl.
That’s what makes it camp and not transgender.
Is there a particular reason why comments to this post arent showing up in the stream?
Back when the Interracial Dating posts were getting tons of comments I disabled the Activity Stream postings because they were overshadowing all of the conversations exclusive to the Stream. Will keep it like this for now so that ppl who have no interest in the Blog Topics but are interested in the Activity Stream can not be overwhelmed by the dozens of comments.
Anytime people are ok with something, even if it’s offensive, they find a reason to justify it . As for me, e I find it very offensive for anyone to refer to me as girl or she , because nature reminds me, with the tent that pitch every morning, that I am indeed a man.
Wow….I didn’t realize that there were THIS MANY fem men that visit this site and comment. Interesting dynamic.
Point blank period…fem men can sometimes be very vicious and cunty in their actions when they feel rejected, disrespected or degraded. I have seen more than a few “act a ass” out in public if something didn’t go their way.
@Ocky This topic is SO right on time because just last week I was in a restaurant with two of my homeboys and this fem dude who saw me in the club came up and tried to holla. I don’t fuck with fem dudes in no shape, form or fashion so I rebuffed his advances. Dude got pissed and I simply said, “Dude, I don’t mean to offend you, you are a handsome brotha, but you just not my type.” The dude snapped on me and said, “Whatever girl, I hate you stuck up neanderthals.” A year ago I would have beat his ass like Apollo beat Brandon….but I’m growing in my patience since moving to Atlanta!
Friedchicken <<—–pulls out his dictionary and looks up the word "neanderthal"
@friedchicken – I feel you my dude. Similar thing happened to me a few weeks ago here in NY. Was havin lunch at this burger spot, and the two cooks were “fem” , slightly chunky, black dudes. Just the attitude when time come to give me my food was ridiculous. Lips smackin’, eyes rolling, exaggerated handing of the tray, callin’ my name madd loud asnd sarcastically. I’m like my dudes, it’s not MY fault yous two are in the kitchen over hot ass stoves and the “pretty” lightskin, skinny gay dude is working the register. I wasn’t checkin for him either, I was just in awe over the whole hierarchy of the joint. smh
This is kind of funny because these camp queens are clocking you guys (if that’s the right term) like construction workers clock a pretty girl on the street, and it’s freaking you out, because as masculine men you are supposed to put on the moves, not have them put on you. You are being objectified sexually, like straight women so often are by straight men, and it freaks you out, and makes you feel wrong, bad, dirty, emasculated. Very powerful experience of disempowerment. Very interesting.
@Michael Broder
1). I am unclockable. Dude only knew I was gay because he has seen me at bulldogs in the back playing cards a couple of times in the past. He saw me in the restaurant and saw it as an opportunity to holla.
2). I don’t have a problem AT ALL with being checked out or even flirted with. It happens all the time. Especially in this city. Being checked out doesn’t emasculate me in the least. The dude was obviously fem and I am not attracted to those types of dudes. Dude flipped out on me when I rejected his advances…it has nothing to do with being emasculated or feeling dirty or wrong.
took the words outta my head, bro.
No tea no shade….BUT, every man I know that has said “I’m unclockable”…is generally highly clockable and are the only ones that don’t know that they are regularly clocked.
@hannibal – Are you directing this response to FriedChicken? I can’t speak for him, but I personally have never described myself as “Unclockable”, I think it’s a stupid ass term made up by effeminate dudes. For me, some dudes can tell, some can’t. Just depends on the dude, I guess. My agreeing with him was in reference to not feeling emasculated because some dude hits on me.
If you never used the term unclockable and I was clearly referring to someone who did use the term…why would you think I was referring to you lol. And it probably was someone feminine who came up with it since its the feminine gay men that come up with things that mainstream liberally steals from.
@Hannibal
If you saw the conversation stream…Michael Broder used the term “clocking” which is the ONLY reason I used it my response back to him. I am comfortable with the MAN that I am. I don’t consider myself a woman, I don’t refer to myself OR other men as women. My question is: why are you concerned about the terminology someone uses? Why is any of this any of your business anyway? This has nothing to do with the topic.
Oh and FYI – anytime someone says “no tea no shade” that USUALLY always means that the “tea” and “shade” is somewhere close at hand. And this is the VERY reason I don’t fuck around with messy, shady ass fems. Too sensitive!
LOL SHOTS FIRED SHOTS FIRED. Alright gents I want a clean fight. Let’s keep it civil. Remember this aint BGC
“I am unclockable. Dude only knew I was gay because he has seen me at bulldogs in the back playing cards a couple of times in the past”
This is the comment that you made that I was referring to. In my experience every gay man that has said this has been rather easily clockable and sadly unaware of it which appears to be the case here. Do have a nice day.
@Hannibal
Damn…now I understand…some fems simply just can’t read. I was responding to a post that Michael Broder posted referring to me and NYC4ever in which he used the word “clocking”…you can’t possibly be this dumb.
Oh and so now you know me to know that I am “clockable?” Get the fuck outta here with that shit. You are a messy, silly, bitter, pink panty wearing fem who got insulted because I made a statement that I don’t fuck with fems. Well, that’s my opinion, that’s how I choose to live my life. I tell you what you can do. Go in the restroom, lock yourself in, throw yourself to the floor in that over the top dramatic style you fems love, pop in a Diana Ross cd and cry me a fucking river.
“Blows Whistle” Foul on the play…LOL
We going into Fem Bashing territory…We can disagree without being disrespectful.
Dammit I said this wasnt BGC. LOL
The game has now been called off due to rain. GAME OVER.
I can read which is why I quoted you. My apologies for using your exact words as a basis to go by. You seem upset. You mad bro? You’ve become a bit emotional about this it seems. You know if you continue being emotional some people may consider you…fem.
You stupid, Ock!! LMFAO!!!! im dyin over here.
I think the question in and of itself is kind of biased. The use of the term degrading indicates that every gay man thinks of it as degrading. As evidenced by many in the comments, plenty of people don’t find it degrading. But I guess since this is a site for masculine gays then it is degrading.
Good point as I am trying to understand the sites true bias. I’m understanding “masculine” and “black”. But does that mean anti-fem? And if so, where does “community” factor in this?
Questions can even be divisive. I am part of the “black ” community. I have “brothers” that happen to be fem. Am I to question what terms they use amongst themselves? Is it appropriate to question how “niggah” or bitch is used amongst many of my other black brothers? We are all in the same boat right? Or is some standard being set? Should I question a standard some of my straight brothers may be holding “me” up to?
I’m trying to see the point in questioning what we all can agree that generally Fems do. If this is not a site against Fems ,what does it matter?
The fact that you have to question should you question leads me to question are you even seeking answers or just ranting.
Nothing wrong with some being more inquisitive than others. I damn near question everything…my brain doesn’t shut off just because something may not directly apply to me.
Yep! I’m seeking answers . Just as the question is raised why “fem” men use fem terminology. An inquiring mind wants to know why a site that claims to cater to “masculine” gay men questions what “fem” gay men do or say?
That leads me to “question” is there a true sense of “community” in the black gay so called “community”. Or is this term just being thrown around when it’s convenient. If it’s the later, it sadly brings truth to much of Donald Sterlings comments about the African American “community” or lack thereof as a whole.
We need to do better.
No rant here. I’m just trying to figure out what I’m willing to support once I get a clear handle on the objective.
I’m pro BLACK first and foremost as a black man who just happens to have sex with other men. I’m not down with the “swirling” for my own “conscious” reasons for the black “community”, although I don’t judge those of my brothers that actively swirl or question why. Although I can give some reasons why “some” do it because I’ve done it. It may not be helping the black cause front and center in the media. But white media was never intended to uplift black consciousness.
In the same light , I have “black ” brothers who are fem and use certain terms. Why question “their” use of those terms if it’s not hurting me as masculine male because they are nowhere near my sphere of influence. Are they part of “my” gay “community”? No. And without hate. BUT they are part of my BLACK community. And that is what I am FIRST.
Ok…so basically you are seeking answers to a question no one asked. For the second time now…can you please read the post and copy and paste where it states “why do fem men talk to each other this way”?
You missed the word “SOME” before to only make up a question that wasn’t asked in the first place. I’m done…Thanks for visiting.
Lol. Typical Ocky reply smh
@ocky in all fairness to others commenting in response to your initial post, the word “some” is buried quite far down, while the headline does not include that little qualifying word. So it becomes a referendum on gay fem male language, comportment, and culture, whether you intended it that way or not.
Thanks for articulating that MB. Which leads me to question the objectives and agenda if this site. I hate division and/or what appears to be divisive. Enough of it in the “black” “community” as it is. Personally I don’t visit the site to “question” clearly feminine behavior. It’s a non issue. They don’t find it degrading amongst themselves at large unless they are using it to check a snobby masculine male as if to say you are no better than me. You are “receptive” to penis as well and it takes a large degree of “psychological ” femininity to be that.
Let the Fems do them. Why question it. Many of us would be only jacking off without them or those with part of that psyche albeit with a hard exterior.
@Pensive – I’M curious about this statement…”They don’t find it degrading amongst themselves at large unless they are using it to check a snobby masculine male as if to say you are no better than me.”
What exactly constitutes a “snobby masc male”, in your opinion? Just asking because from personal experience, I find ANY time I’ve turned down an advance from a guy that I find effeminate, I’ve been met with all types of unnecessary attitude. Many times I was nice about it, then after a while of the same types of fucked up response, I just turned into a dick about it. Now I don’t even make eye contact nor try to be friendly with effeminate guys because more often than not, that friendliness is taken for flirtation and openness for something “more” (Mind you, the aforementioned situation doesn’t JUST apply to fem guys, gay men in GENERAL have an issue with distinguishing a friendly gesture from a good looking man from flirtation. I’m guilty of it as well, especially from dudes whom I initially think may get down and end up being straight) I generally avoid effeminate men (attractive or otherwise) now because I don’t want to go through all that “drama”. Now this makes ME seem like a “snobby masc male” but its not without a reason.
@NYC
Put yourself in the offenders position. Taken from their point of view you are in the same place they are, looking for some of the same things. We all know the olds of them acting out when rejected. It’s a female thing. You even putting yourself in a situation to be approached by one of “them” when you’d rather not be , reeks snobbery in their eyes. Therefore the ensuing “you’re no better than me ” female put down .
Again we know this happens . At least you should if you been in the game long enough ,so why question it. It’s what they do. If you can’t stand the heat, stay out the kitchen. And none of this would be an issue or a question to ask.
Well, I do “stay out of the kitchen” as like I said, I avoid dealing with (what I would deem) effeminate men as much as possible. Your explanation is pretty much along the lines of what I was thinking, just wanted to hear if someone else was thinking the same as myself. And to be honest, I haven’t bothered with ANY dude for a very long time now so honestly I haven’t been in a situation where the “perpetrator(s)” and I were “looking for the same thing”, i.e. club/bar/lounge/etc. So “staying out the kitchen” is not the issue (for me). Normally I’m just standing outside my job and smokin’ a cig and I get the attitude(s). And again, there’s nothing wrong with questioning someone’s motives behind their actions, especially when said actions are offensive to someone else. But again, thanks for your insight to my question.
WTF…I did not include the word Fem in the title however I did include the word “SOME” in the first sentence of the second paragraph of a two paragraph post. The messages that I read online last week which prompted the question in the first place was from what I assume are more masculine gay men. NOT FEM MEN!!!
The fact that anyone is implying and injecting the word FEM is your projections. You are creating a different posts than what was posted. That’s your baggage not mine.
Even when the word “fem” is not included somehow I’m still attacking fems and fem culture? Are you kidding me with this shit?
@ocky I dont think you were attacking fems. The question is some what loaded because of the word degrades.
@Ocky no need to deflect man or whatever your strategy to clean this up is. We all know that by and large ,if not to 100%, fem men use fem terms to describe either themselves ,associates or anyone that hurts their feelings.
None of that comes out of the mouth of anyone masculine man I know (that’s gay).
Why question it?
@pensive – I think the reason any of this was even brought up (aside from the insulting manner by which the Youtuber used “she” in ref to Ocky) is just a matter of general curiosity. I’ve wondered it myself. To ask why masc men are questioning something that doesn’t pertain to their circle is the same as anyone asking about anything that may not pertain to their exact circle. Most of the dudes on here (myself included) have been referred to as “girl/she/miss thing” etc, more often than not in an insulting way. The question is simply why do(and it IS the majority of effeminate black/latin men that do this, no need for anyone to feel offended by that statement) effeminate men feel the need to use this terminology when insulting someone. I wont say “when insulting a masc dude”, because the guys that speak this way that I’ve known of are totally indiscriminate in whom they use these terms against. It’s just one of those things that a particular group of people (myself included) finds annoying and just wonder the “WHY” behind it. That doesn’t equate to discrimination or division, just a curiosity.
@NYC . I get the curiosity and the discussion. Something to talk about I guess.
I’ve heard honest insight that probably others want to see as well. The title of the post is very broad and appears condescending or like something that shouldn’t be happening.
To me it’s clear “they” the “Fems” do this because they fully embrace the feminine principle within them . They are proud of it. They joke with it. And it’s not degrading to them when used a certain way. It’s their culture.
When they use it to “degrade” . It’s checkmate . You’re “receptive” more than likely , to the dick as much as I am ,no matter how much of a hard head you are. And it takes a certain degree of FEMININITY in your PSYCHE to be such.
If you don’t want to be called out for what it truly is , steer clear. In their minds they are keeping it real. And the truth is, they are.
So if the question was truly just for discussions sake , cool. You gave me a good answer.
Thanks!
Shouldn’t the question be,”Why Do SOME Gay Men Degrade Other Men By Refering To Them As Females”?
I don’t know about anyone else , but in my world this is a non-factor because I scrutinize where I’m at and who I’m around at all times. I rarely if ever hear “niggah” or ” bitch”.
What comes out of your mouth has a direct reflection on the way you view yourself. And your associates and environments you put “yourself” in ,reflect you as well.
So I’m left puzzled as to why this is a topic amongst masculine gay men? Or is it meant to get a rise out of the generally fem men that use the terms?
With that said I get the familiar sense of seperation. Is that productive to the so called “community”?
I hear the term gay “community” used a lot here. Are gays really a “community” or just different types of men that have sex with men? I’m still trying to understand the concept of “community” amongst msm participants.
“Why Do SOME Gay Men Degrade…..?” There’s no rhyme or reason to it IMO. And it doesn’t affect me in any way.
If you’re masculine and it’s happened to you and you got offended or take offense to hearing it, maybe you should be questioning the surroundings you put yourself in.
Why does my neighbor smoke? That’s his business. It’s only going to affect me if I’m getting second hand smoke in the same room.
And that will never happen.
Yeah…first sentence, second paragraph of this quick post…
“Why is it that the go to insult by SOME gay men towards other gay men is to refer to them in the female sense?”
You may have missed it.
“Are gays really a “community” or just different types of men that have sex with men? I’m still trying to understand the concept of “community” amongst msm participants.”
We’re just different types of men that have sex with other men, basically. There is no real “Community” amongst homosexual men. That simple fact can been seen at any Gay Pride, where (damn near)everyone is sectioned off from each other according to race/ethnic background, fetish, masc/fem ration, and musical preference.
@ NYC
Thanks for the answer. I thought that as well.
Communities can make things happen appealing to their special interests. Not so sure though that questioning the habits of another group resolves issues in your group. So gays or black gays more specifically aren’t a community at large. But clearly there are different sections or groups of special interest. How does it help me to be preoccupied with the lingo or mannerisms of another group. Let them do them.
I’d like to think I belong to an African American “community” that includes my fem brothers, my thug bros, and professional bros. if I’m judging what they do or questioning I’m setting a standard ,or implying there should be one and that opens Pandora’s box. The one that gay men in general prefer to stay shut tight.
Questioning the lingo/ customs of one group ideally wouldn’t be “necessary” by another group in a perfect world. However, people are always going to question (in a generalized manner) why one group does or says things that it does, and certainly when it’s observed that a particular group becomes known for said lingo/customs. It’s like asking…”why are white people always jumpin’ out of shit”, or…”why does every Asian own a Dry Cleaners”. Clearly all white people dont jump out of things, and clearly every Aisan is NOT the owner of a dry cleaners however, enough do and are to spark a general curiosity of which the answer serves no real purpose other than to satiate said curiosity.
This line of questioning forms in lieu of concern when said group uses this specific lingo and/or mannerisms as a means to offend another group for whatever reason. The answer could very well be “that’s just their custom within their group” and that’s fine, but when that group takes their “customs” and use them as jabs and insults to another group, then yeah, they’re gonna get questioned and eventually stereotyped and “shunned”.
@NYC .
So is it safe to conclude now that there are in fact “groups ” or “communities” among black gays.
The question kinda fosters an us against them stance . And the jabs you speak of imply that notion as well.
Truth is, we know why “they” do it. The questions almost indicates denial over it. And generalizing by saying “gay me” . Then on top of that “some” , in the context of the post , when we know Fems are being alluded to , brings a contention to the fore.
Accept it for what it is. We know what it is. Playing stupid doesn’t change or resolve anything. This only sparks the very debates I thought the site didn’t entertain. You either feed into division or avoid anything that might incite it.
Be the bigger man I say. We know the Fems do this and their reasons for doing so. Take it like a man or don’t get in the ring. They will never stop doing that. It’s part of the culture.
I say “Some” in order not to generalize and thus offend. There are some effeminate men that dont use Fem Terms, believe it or not. And agawin, I’m not purposely putting myself in a situation where I should have to deal with these types of attitudes, unless just being out in public warrants them. And in the same vein of your stating “deal with it”, then you should also being willing to “deal” with the fact that said behavior is going to ALWAYS cause a division between masculine men and effeminate men.
On a side note to one of your other comments, I can’t speak for any other dude on this, but I’ve bottomed quite a few times in the distant past and I don’t recall ever having to adjust my psyche and feel “feminine to do so. I was well aware that I have a dick and I was just happening to be a dude that was getting penetrated. No “female attunement” (sp?) was needed at any given moment for me to get through it, my dude.
@NYC
Clearly we are talking about them Fems that do. The ones that don’t are a non-factor.
You’re smart NYC. There was no “adjusting” at the moment on your part. Being”receptive “to the “physical manifestation” of the male principle (the penis) is /was part of your makeup. Domination by the man if only for the moment. Or at best “receptivity” , the polar opposite of the male principle. Sex starts in the head. But that’s another topic.
My point is , these Fems understand clearly that men are seeking the male principle . Especially the ones up in the same joint they are. So they will call you out on it if and when they deem it necessary. And on a psychological level there is no way to worm ones way out of that.
You know we are not speaking of ” acting ” feminine while in the act by any means. Merely speaking of being receptive to the male principle psychologically resulting in a “physical reflection of that train of thought in bed .
One day we will all be old (God willing) and hopefully we will see how asinine this entire subject and many of the comments are while true love passes us by. Do you know anything about our history as gay black men? Live, Let Live and Love. Life is too short for this negative shit my dudes.
Some of them don’t mean it in a disrespectful way. When you have a gay guy doing that, nine times out of ten they are queens themselves and it’s just something that they say. Personally I don’t like it so it would offend me, just like being called nigga by another black person.
depends I guess how the other person takes it as well. I guess I could be offended if anyone would call me those names, but I figure its a last minute ditch cuz u cant think of anything clever to say, therefore im counting that as a win in my books.
Back in the day; whether you were straight or gay, if you referred to another man as she, her, woman, bitch, and even whore,slut or any feminine pronoun the man in question was highly offended. It seems now to do so is “trendy”, because even straight men refer to other “straight men” as bitches, whores, etc. But as for me and my crew, be ready for a beat-down…..we don’t play that!
I have read that sometimes effeminacy, flamboyancy, campiness, ect is a sign of immaturity or even histrionic personality disorder.