I have been mentally damaged. At least I‘m aware of it. I’m leery and cautious around other gay men. I don’t trust them. I know this is not healthy and I am working on it. Again, I am aware.
This is not so much about my mental short comings when it comes to mistrust, gay men and the gay lifestyle. That is really a separate discussion but it does play a part in my understanding why I only have one friend but would like to have more.
As with any of my self-analysis, I always try to think back to the root of the cause. This analysis usually takes multiple paths to come to a few conclusions which can literally translate to “my thoughts being all over the place”.
I don’t want to use the term or pass it off as someone else’s “fault” because for me that would feel like I am not taking responsibility. Please, I am nobody’s victim, but I will try to get you to understand why my reaction is so strong.
It’s because gay guys suck. No pun intended.
That is just frustration talking. I know there are many homosexual men who are damaged like me.
My partner and I have had conversations pertaining to this and it took me months to come to an understanding. It’s not only because of insecurity, my mind and thoughts have been jaded when it comes to gay men.
Let me set the stage on how the ongoing conversation typically went. He would reminisce about old times with his friends. His thoughts could be triggered by a text message, a phone call or by simply planning a trip between us.
He would tell tales of the good times he had with his “brothers”. From his military days to the days working the beat as a police officer, he has never ending tales of the good times he has had with his friends he calls his “brothers”. Oh and they just happen to be gay.
This group of guys could meet up at one’s house, hang out, play cards, shoot pool and drink all night. All go to sleep (at the same house), wake up, eat breakfast, go to the gym or go play basketball and in the mist of everything, have ZERO sexual contact or sexual conflict with one another.
What was my aversion to this? I just didn’t believe it because of my own experiences and baggage. For one when I was exposed to gay men using the term “brother” it was in conjunction with “little”…meaning so-and-so is my “little brother”. Usually the older more experienced gay was somewhat sort of mentoring the younger gay (usually a college student from another state). In between the mentoring, sex was also involved. I experienced this a lot in many gay circles.
The mental conception of older (mentor) gays having sex with much much younger gays, the “little brother” has now be implanted in my mind and it stuck.
Thus holding a mental place card.
So the conversations I am having with my partner about his “brothers” for me has a sexual component that is not to be trusted but shunned, even if the sexual component is not true. Was this a conclusion from my self-analysis? Well not fully….the self-analysis continues.
I became somewhat comfortable with my sexuality when I was about 22 years of age. Once comfortable, I felt it was my quest to find a “band of gay brothers”. I dreamed about these brothers and romanticized the thought. Growing up in an area, where everyone knows someone you know, I envisioned these brothers of mine would be cool, laid back and discreet, just regular ole dudes.
We could talk shit to each other, watch sports, play video games, talk about music, go to movies, drink, smoke and just do regular guy shit in conjunction with school and work. Pretty much the same stuff I did with my straight friends, except these dudes would be gay.
I thought to myself masculine gay dudes would not be into drama and messy shit because we would be just regular carefree dudes. We don’t deal with that type of stuff. I was so naïve. Poor me, so fucking naïve.
The guys I ended up with began the “jading” process for me towards gay men. Meaning that because this was my first experience with a group of gay men, I didn’t know there was another way.
This is how I found out gay “friends” occasionally sleep with each other? Wow okay.
What I thought was an environment of brotherhood was far from it. What was I to do? What other gay dudes were out there?
That is how gay friendships begin? You have some sort of sexual relations, add water and stir; instant friendship. No big deal right? Yes this is a big deal because underneath, none of us are really friends. We are close acquaintances who occasionally have sexual contact.
How can the friendships foster when trying to get an orgasm is involved? Something about this was off but I just rolled with it; until after a couple of years I became detached from this group and moved on.
While these “friendships” were ending, another was beginning. I met a cool masculine guy while in my home town who was from Atlanta, Georgia. He introduced me to his circle of friends and it had an all too familiar feeling about it. It was pretty much the same scenario. So now I guess its fact “all gay dudes who are friends sleep together”.
I came to Atlanta with him to visit since I had never been. I had heard great things about the city and wanted to witness some of them first hand. I was introduced to his childhood gay friends who were also in town that weekend. You guessed it…these friends all had sexual connections, past and present. Couple this with later being roommates with some of these guys and having to deal with drama, fists fights, messiness and gossip first hand…I was done. The things we do and the mistakes we make in our early 20’s.
Fuck this gay shit. I wanted bros not hoes…but damn I was one of those hoes.
The mental conception that to have a gay male friend means you most likely have had sexual contact with them first, has now been implanted in my mind and it stuck.
Thus holding a mental place card.
Now in my mid to late 20’s, I knew these types of “friendships” were not for me. I had no friends. For the most part I was alone and lonely.
Yes my insecurities, apprehensions and mistrusts of men was reinforced by the jerks and knuckleheads I did come across after leaving the cliques; however I did come across some cool brothers but sex was involved.
Did I miss out on and pass up potential meaningful friendships all because I was lonely and horny?
I was insecure. This had nothing to do with my sexuality but had to do with my mentality and how I valued me. I didn’t know how to form and foster meaningful male relationships and I understood the relationship I had with myself was also lacking.
Looking back on this time, it was good that I was alone and had for the most part isolated myself. Solitude has it virtues.
I can enjoy being alone and not being a part of the group. I have dominance and order. Being alone gave me the opportunity to reflect, heal and grow….and I have. Years later, I was available to allow love to come into my life in the form of my partner. I have a true best friend that I have never had sexual contact with in the form of Nick Delmacy.
Getting back to my partner and his reminiscing about his “brothers”; I know now that I was viewing his joyful experience through my mentally damaged lens. I was preaching that the majority of gay men only want one thing and can’t be genuine friends. These factual examples flourish within the community. Hiding in my sermon was the fact that I was jealous that my past homosexual life sucked and his didn’t.
I have gotten over it for the most part but understand I have a long way to go. Through constant analysis (and some therapy) I again understand; I don’t know how to form meaningful male friendships. I have not had any examples.
I wish I could explain the emptiness I feel. It is hard for me to verbalize. I can’t put into words the joy and comradery that must exist from true group male bonding because I have never experienced it…but it has to exist and I want it.
I must admit, as I have gotten older my tolerance levels has gotten shorter. It is very easy for me to cut folk off from my existence. I can be very judgmental in the fact that I think men should have a certain set of core values. Loyalty, honesty, integrity, ethics and be a man of your word (if you say you are gonna do something, do it) just to name a few, but these few values are major to me.
If I sense that these attributes maybe a little off, I cut you off. I know that may sound harsh but learning from the mistakes I made with the messy homosexual men in my past; I don’t want to make the same mistake again. Maybe if I would have learned and done this sooner I would have had less problems back then. I know you have to live to learn but I’m just saying.
But how much should that have an impact on my quality of life now? As I get older, I realized I still romanticize about my fictitious “band of brothers”.
Many of us have heard or have said, “I am not looking for friends. I have enough of them.” For the majority of my gay life I feel like men have always wanted something from me but never actually wanted me. They either wanted sex or a relationship but rarely if ever a friendship; why?
Please understand by no means was I an angel and I have done some grimy shit. I do realize with my actions and mental damage, I help pass along the curse but this doesn’t change the facts in how I currently feel.
I know I have many great positive attributes but I don’t know how to go about showing a potential new friend/s the great things I have to offer. How do I become friends with another gay man? How can it develop into more than just a casual acquaintance? Hell, how do I find out how?
There is not a “How To Make Gay Male Friends” for Dummies. As I stated earlier, I didn’t see any real meaningful examples in my 20’s and still don’t see any tangible examples in my 30’s.
I am putting parts of my past and present self out there because I know there are others who may be currently in or have experienced similarities to this brief story.
Outside of gay clubs, the internet is the only form of gay contact that many homosexual men have. For me this doesn’t equate to a real connection.
As you can tell I don’t have the answer. The black gay community is just as broken as the larger black community. I will say this site has helped me just as it has helped others. I will continue to use self-analysis to see what impact and changes I can make to help us with this dilemma.
I welcome your responses and feedback.
Wow ! Ocky, Man I am right there with you dude!
I have ran into this problem as well. I dont trust these gay folks! LOL! It is a shame that we feel that way or have to say shit like that. I moved to ATL a little over 5 years ago fresh into my 20s ready to see what the city had to offer. Even though I had experinced the difficulty of making frindes due to messines, the sex circles,bitch ways, femine personalites, and all the other bullshit that seemed to have come along with liking dudes, I told mysefl, Self give this gay stuff another shot, make friends, have fun. …you in a new city….LIVE YA LIFE!
The sad thing is my eyes got opened to the fact that gay folks were still, maybe even more so in atl, messy, and or flamboyantly femine. They all never wanted to really be friends, and if they did they would try and have sex with you first, or during the the time we were just trying to be cool. Tried to make a friend with dude who later tried to get me to be a celebrity escort..lol… Oh and was still trying to have sex with me too lol…. it was crazy man. I was always given the excuse ” you are masculine attractive , not a bum, so im trying to lock you down”. My response was always dude whats wrong with being friends?
It has always been hard to find kats like me to just chill and be cool with.
I am rambling a bit but what I am trying to say is , man, I am right there with you man. I am just going into my late 20’s now and like you Ocky, I only have ONE male gay friend that I trust and has not brought drama, or messy bullshit to my life.
I still want a few more friends to do shit with though… you know? But Like you my insecurites from previous experinces has made me cautious as hell. I am working on trying to find a few naturally masculine men who just want be friends with out any hidden agendas, but aye you know how it is out here!
But anyway man, in this post you are speaking to me!!!
I spoke from my heart and with passion. I spoke my truth.
I know plenty of us have more similarities than differences but we DO have those differences.
I tell guys like yourself through email constantly, your feedback and testimony helps and humbles me more than you know.
Thank you and understand your feedback helps others in your position.
Your voice is power.
Thank you for this piece; i was very much touched by it. I can identify with some of what you shared. I too dont have the examples of how to navigate my sexuality and it can be fustrating at times. I also long for that awesome group of friends. Sometimes i wonder if i am caught up what i see on tv which makes mi want that “sex in the city” band of friends. I guess it comes down to trust and having equal support and togetherness in the group. I have friends but i feel like i over-extend myself to my friends but i dont feel it back. I just need a small band of guys where we can be there spiritually, emotionally, financially and lovingly there for each other. One of my problems is that i tend to think allow. Sometimes i wish i could term it off. But i am always keeping a mental file on people i meet and keep an account of their good and bad. I find that that makes me hold back sometimes, play head games and not sure how to feel about the person. When it comes down to it what i can to get from friends or a bf is ” do you see me, do you hear me and does what i say matter to you”. Sometimes i wish there was an easy button.
“Yah man!” (Jamaican accent)
I def feel the same way. I think a lot and be keeping mental files on people. One of my mentors who is more than twice my age (who I don’t sleep with LOL), told me something that will always stick with me… You must love people where they’re at. Don’t try to change them and make them exactly how you want them.
Hope that helps.
Octavius , dude! ….many thanks to you for putting this passage out there..
As I began reading the article, I had no idea what it was going to be about. And BAM!! – I became glued to every single word as the sentences flew by. This article really touched me because most of it mirrors my own struggles with trying to cultivate quality friendships that doesn’t have to involve sexual contact with the subject of that burgeoning friendship. After reading the article, I sat here for a moment to reflect on the failed friendships and acquaintances I’ve had over the years, and it all feels like a huge waste of time that I’ll never get back! And yes, that fact makes me somewhat bitter and jaded to the entire process. As I settle into my mid 30s, I feel a sense of wisdom and developing solace. Instead of allowing cynicism to overtake me, I now count on no one to bring fulfillment to my life. Though I would love to have that “band of brothers” we see on the black romantic comedies like “Think Like a Man” and countless others, I’ve accepted the one best friend I do have. He’s sexy, educated, altruistic, and really funny. And guess what? I’ve never seen him naked in the 8 years I’ve known him. I love him like a big brother 🙂
BTW – Last weekend, I went to the movies alone (as I’ve done for several yrs), and I regret nothing.
I’ll go to the movies with you. LOL Just let me know the date and time. If I’m not doing anything. … llll olololol… you can call on me…
COSHAMO lol
I’d be honored to accompany you to the movies lil homie.
But I’d have to keep an eye on you. I think you would probably get us both kicked out of the theater for telling other people to keep quiet 🙂
BLACK PEE… I do not know what to do with you.. swear…. LOL. You always make me laugh though. That’s a good thing… I will be offering you a glass of my new concoction.. “STRAWBERRY LEMONADE”… LOL only for you… only for you…
This was a great great post. First, it is hard to find masculine everyday dudes who are not streight anyway. Like many dudes, I have had good close friendships with streight folk. I have gone through lots of debate in my head about this. I want to have a nonsexual friendship with more than one masculine gay/bi dude. Once I saw how hard that was, I thought that I was just being too judgemental. Whats wrong with having fem dudes to chill with? They are easier to find, and I do know some cool loyal fem dudes, so maybe I should just not care. But I do care. I want to hang with dudes more like me. Recently I pushed aside the masculine thing for a while and just started making friends with those who I found cool regardless of how masc or fem they were. Many of the cool fem dudes are also damaged. They run away out of fear of being used for sex by a more masculine dude. At this point, I really would love to chill with a few masc dudes, but I am just going to stay open and hopefully they will come. Since I do not relate to fem dudes that much, many of them will fall away. There are masc gay/bi men all around us, but they are invisible. If you tried to make an all masc meeting site, people would just egnore the masculine rule, and you will get the same things.
Sometimes meeting cool masculine dudes can be a little odd. Since I want to be friends with other masculine dudes, and I also like them sexually, things can be odd. The things you like about somebody sometimes are the things you like about them, and no, that is not a typo.
The question of whether men and women can just be friends is a constent issue on the streight side of things. With many people looking for relationships and sex, it can be hard to find cool people. When you throw the gay culture in, you already know what happens.
Heres to masculine men to meet each other and bond.
GREAT POST. Very thoughtful too. thinking OUT THE BOX too… “having fem dudes as platonic friends”…. interesting “thought”… LOL interesting thought indeed…
Yes. Fem dudes can be just as cool and loyal as anyone else. I figure that if I do not make a big deal about the masc thing, then, when I least exspect it, boom, a masc dude magicly appears. LOL.
this was really a great read, I have always wanted gay friends just never knew how to find the laid back ones who weren’t really into doing typical gay lifestyle things. I do have a circle a straight friends but I feel a disconnect because they are straight lol. for now my partner is my only gay friends and that will do
Another thing we must ask ourselves is;
“are we passing up potential good friends because they do not fit a certain mold?”
1.) Body type & attractiveness
2.) Car they drive
3.) Financial ability
4.) educational background
5.) Chosen career or job
As I sit here and think about it, I would have to say that I’m guilty of judging “possible friends” in the same superficial context as I would for “possible lovers”. Some of it is understandable, but for the most part, I think I’ve missed out on getting to know some interesting people because they didn’t fit a certain mold.
Having said that, I hate to admit it, but I wouldn’t want to go to a gay pride destination with an unattractive, out-of-shape friend. I don’t know what that says about me, but I suspect this is the case for alot of gay men.
I thoroughly agree with your points stated here Black Pegasus. I think many gay men do pass many pre-judgments on people. I can’t remember where I read, listened or watched something where other gay men stated that when coming into the gay community that it seems like the people you come across that you have to win them over instead of the people being welcoming to you and others.
It is even in the Adonis Factor documentary that has been talked about on this blog here in the past…. many gay men desire friends that are “financially secure” (I’m using that term loosely – they want someone RICH), that have the “gay trifecta” (face, body, dick), and all the other stuff you listed and even more than that.
African King
Yes! The Adonis Factor explains it precisely!
Thank you my young brotha!
Some things you stated are already sticking out in my mind…but you are already self-anylizing those comments due to thinking about what you wrote…beautiful.
You are asking personal questions of yourself and that is were growth begins.
Everyone needs to understand personal evolution and growth should always be a constant part of your life.
BP you are a stable part of this community and your voice is needed. The floor is always yours.
Good question. Why do we do that. Pick our friends based on superficial stuff. One of the reasons is that we want to chill with a dude like us, so we can have the everyday rhythem in common. Maybe we should talk about ways to change the way we pick/judge friends. What really is important verses what would be nice/”a plus not a must”. I would love to dive into that, but I hate typing a lot.
@Black Pegasis–In response to your post, I have a friend who is my friend & Brother. He is a masculine GBM. I was introduced to him by a mutual friend. We clicked immediately as he was a very funny, humble and thoughtful dude. And we bonded over our mutual love of black music. When we met, he was the poster child for what most SGL guys want. He was a pretty good looking guy, but he was a “gym rat” and had the body of life–the kind of guy who walks in a room fully clothed, and still causes whiplash by all of the heads he turns–men & women! That’s how built he was–all muscle! In the last year, my buddy has gone through some severe health challenges that have left him a shell of himself. He’s gone from 255 lbs. of solid muscle, to a drawn, haggard looking dude of about 160. Still, when he’s up to it, we hang out publicly, go to dinner, movies, etc. He turns absolutely no heads, and unfortunately, looks ill. People look at him and you know they’re thinking, “Damn! What’s wrong with dude?” And I am not ashamed to be seen with him. They don’t matter. Because when we start talking, and joking and laughing, and lying and debating–to me, he’s still just my buddy who’s my boy, my friend and my main man! We’ve never had sex before, but as friends, we felt free to regale each other with our various sexual exploits with others–especially when he was not sick an pulling all that gym sex.
You’re probably asking yourself, “So what’s the point, N*gga?” Well the point is when you can connect with someone emotionally on “who that person is”, as opposed to “what it is they have, how they look or what have they accomplished,” the outward appearance may not be as important. Because, as much of an “after school special” as this story is, it’s all true! In all relationships, as well as friendships–it’s what’s inside the person that ultimately counts.
I hope this helps, Bruh….
Wow so really shallow dude, so you judge friendship on how someone looks.Really ? Then no wonder that you have a hard time forming meaningful relationships with other gay men because it’s not what’s on the outside that counts but what’s on the inside that matters with friends.
“Since we are being honest and open here”… LOL… I’m having too much fun…. I have a question for you.
“I wouldn’t want to go to a gay pride destination with an unattractive, out-of-shape friend.” Did you really mean this? That is so hurtful. That would be devastating to someone to think that you “were” their friend until it was time to be “seen” in public with them. At first I wanted to disregard this as “I can’t deal with this statement right now, because I really like the dude,” but I felt the need to address this. It hurts me to think you would do this. You wouldn’t have someone as your friend because they were “fat and ugly?”
COSHAMO
Sorry for my late response, but this article moved from the front page, and all of us were involved in other great conversations on the site.
Now, to address your question as well as a.davis.
In my previous comment, what you read was my unabashed truth. I was opening myself up for the sake of reflection and repair. I am too compassionate a guy to turn down a friendship for such shallow reasons…. Having said that, I’m also a guy who likes to take care of himself by going to the gym (when possible) and eating a healthy diet. So obviously, I would most likely find a comfort zone with people who share similar likenesses. i have one friend who mirrors my interest (I mentioned him above).
However, I do have a friend of many years who happens to be a very “big guy”. Robust 6’3 giant! We have beers together and talk about sports and music. I never judged him nor felt embarrassed to be in his company, but I would never ask him to accompany me to Miami Sizzle or Blatino Oasis.
Why, because those venues are not for a faint at heart. You have to bring your “A” game, and this particular friend does not ascribe to those requirements. I know that sounds harsh, but it is what it is..
Would I go to the movies with him? Yes
Shoot pool? Yes
Bowling? Yes
NBA games? Yes
South Beach Miami? an unequivocal NO.
Damn Ocky this is a very nice and introspective read. Through the posts and podcasts on this blog, I’ve gathered small bits and pieces of how the earlier parts of your life and Nick’s life were. I thought this introspective and reflective post here was pretty dope. I am pretty much in the place you were where I am wanting gay friends (not “friends with benefits”). I am turning 24 later this year and I have reached out to you guys here at Discreet City and Derrick Briggs at ADTV and both of you have commented on dilemmas I’ve had. Derrick Briggs posted a video on the ADTV (dlbbco) YouTube channel 3 days ago which features Dustin Ross (actor in the movie called ‘The Skinny’). Around the 9:15 mark in the video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11EYM9bAQWI), they answer the question I have about establishing platonic relationships with other gay men. Basically they say that I should just be involved in my community and don’t isolate myself. They believe that as time goes on then I will come across people who feel like me, you and all the commenters on this blog.
I was just on Twitter and I was browsing some profiles of some gay, bisexual and DL black/African men and it is crazy how the “gay lifestyle” is oversexed! I know that we are all men here and we are visual creatures but DAMN! If you notice, all the tweets, pics, etc deal with trying to hook-up, porn, sex parties, pride parades, etc. I bet some people are out there using social networks seeking friendship (like myself) but it seems like when some people are searching for friends, they’re searching for men they’re attracted to sexually. They’re not interested in building relationships with people who stimulate them mentally (like in friendships). Many younger gay men are not seeking to do like Ocky said above: “… talk shit to each other, watch sports, play video games, talk about music, go to movies, drink, smoke and just do regular guy shit in conjunction with school and work.”
I think many of the behaviors many gay men, particularly YOUNGER gay men (18 to 26), exhibit is due to the fact that they had to repress their sexual desires during their growing up. When they get the chance to explore their sexual desires and be in the company of other gay men like themselves, they have strong desires to explore sexual intimacy. Am I wrong?! Someone help me out here?! What are your thoughts on this?!
I am going to keep believing that I will be able to come across other gay men who are as smart, funny, loyal, respectful, and amazing as I am! 🙂
I don’t know what the future holds for me and everyone else on here but I do think that if we all as gay men can drop all of our baggage that we can make moves to healing ourselves and gaining clarity in our lives. Just like you Ocky, I have gone through stints of counseling/therapy while I was a senior in college and even after college to attempt to gain clarity and understanding about who I am now and who I am becoming.
One more thing I do want to add Ocky is that even though you may only have your partner and Nick that you are super cool with, that may really be enough. Honestly. I think like Wale says in the lyrics of his new song featuring Tiara Thomas, “Bad”, that “…it seems we fiend what we don’t need…” I’m sure you guys have heard that song and you know the context of his 1st verse in the song. I think QUALITY matters so much more than QUANTITY. I mean it is not bad to want more gay friends however, if Nick and your partner, Princeton (I think you said that name in the 9th podcast LOL), are those two true people you can stick with in life then so be it. I think it is better to feel invincible with two or three people you can really trust and respect instead of having 10+ people all over the place and you’re wondering, “what the heck are all these people doing here? all the drama, messiness, B.S., etc needs to go!” Do you know what I mean?
Ocky and Nick, the new submitters, and other members of the DC blog….. YOUR THOUGHTS?
Random: Ocky have you ever thought of starting a gay sports league in the ATL? That might be a way for you to meet people and have fun.
African King, that was a very well thought out post. I really liked reading it. We are moving forward and onward. This feels great.
I appreciate it man! It feels good to have people I can relate to!
I see you be blowin’ up the comments section on these posts too. Keep it up LOL.
I think more discussions like this NEED to take place and I am glad because one of my therapists told me that I should discuss with other guys like me in a forum. I think I’ve found my place 🙂
Talking about it is one of the first steps towards healing and gaining clarity.
Observation…”one of my therapists told me”
AF you know we at Discreet City think you are a young breath of fresh air. As a young man you already know the joys and wonders of professional therapy.
This is a tool that is missing from the black community and you have already tapped into it!
As I have told you via email…dude you got the world in your hands.
I am so happy I tapped into it. I was at church on New Years Eve in 2011 and I felt out of place and I felt like something had to change. So I decide to take advantage of the counseling and therapy services my school offered for FREE. When I took that step, I couldn’t believe that I was finally opening up about all the things I held inside. You guys remember “The Chadwick Journals” from Quincy LeNear & Deondray Gossett? I felt just like that dude in it when he said things out loud for the first time. It was SO therapeutic. I’m glad I took advantage of it. And yes it is missing from the black community and more people should use it. It is a great tool that HELPS more than doing self-destructive behaviors.
I gotta say that I remember your post about your being denied for mentorship…. I think that it doesn’t even matter anymore because you and Nick have been that for me and all the other brothas on this website. Y’all keep makin’ ish happen!
Ocky…. I remember that e-mail. Thank YOU. As time goes on and I’ve grown to accept myself more for who I really am, I am beginning to realize that I gotta grab life by the BALLS. 😉
S/O to Discreet City!!! Ayeee! #shittinonalltheothergayblackmaleblogsforreal
African King
When I hear someone mentioning counseling by a therapist, I immediately know they are both smarter and braver than most people around them..I applaud you for being so conscious and aware of your needs and ability to address those needs. I wish I had taken similar steps during my 20s.
I been looking at your website for awhile now,,,,, and most of the stuff you guys blog about I agree with, but seems too me no matter how much blogging you do you always seem too come back too the same issues about the LGBTQ community, and from what i been reading and hearing from your podcast, your issues seem too be with yourself not the LGBTQ community. It seems too me that you and Nick aren’t comfortable with who you are, and instead of owing up too it you making these blogs and podcast like something is wrong with the LGBTQ community when really the issues seem too lie within you, too me it seems like your tearing down a community you claim your apart of. So to you Octavius and Nick maybe you should found out why are you so uncomfortable with who you are, or find who you are.
I will never stop looking within for ways to handle life’s ills. We all have issues and no one is perfection thus our communities have issues.
As far as your comment, I don’t expect those who are at home and comfortable with the community’s status quo propaganda to get where I am coming from. If this applies to you so be it.
I learned early to never attempt to change or impact those minds that are already closed off to dissenting points of view. What would be the point? For many gays it seems like the problems begin and ends with coming out of the closet and accepting the propped up spectacle that is the mainstream gay lifestyle.
These same gays cant fathom there are other homosexual men who don’t eat and breathe their life so therefor they are doing “gay” wrong.
Keep your community and I will find my own. I don’t mind not eating from your trough. I can eat from my own table after I build it.
Thank you for your feedback.
Ocky, that was so elegantly stated and to the POINT. “I can eat from my own table after I build it.” That says a MOUTHFUL. That statement right there MOVES MOUNTAINS.
I understand where you are coming from, I myself don’t go too gay bars, clubs or parties, its just not my thing, I don’t act or dress in a feminine manner, but I also respect those that do and do not judge them because i have no right too…but i also think we should give praise too those LGBTQ people who are out and proud and shows it proudly, too me there are the true hero’s because they willing too face the stares, comments, abuse, and hatred that most of us are too scared too face, its funny how you accuse me of having a closed off mind but yet you cant see that. This community is what you make and hell if you want too live it in your own little certain way then do so, but don’t you dare put down or judge others who are just doing the same,.(GAY) is just one word with one meaning and you cant break it off into different sections too fit your circumstance, if you identify yourself as a gay men then that’s what you are there is no in-between where all fighting for the same rights. So before you build your table and eat at it makes sure you know the foundation its built on and who’s around it.
Wow…very very good response LFL29…
Okay, did I miss something? The only reason imma respond to this is because my name was mentioned. He says he understands our point of view and concludes that the key to our happiness is to surrender…to give in to the lifestyle we have repeatedly said we don’t fit into or have many similar interests in? What about my needs? My interests? My yearning for people like me? Liking penis is the ONLY commonality a person needs?!
Dude I am VERY comfortable with who I am. My friends are comfortable with who I am. My family is comfortable with who I am. What I’m not comfortable with are the many people in the sex-crazed, attention seeking, messiness promoting, gossip hungry, mediocrity accepting “Gay Lifestyle” who selfishly think that anyone not being “gay” like them is unhappy.
If you follow Discreet City then you know we promote expanding diversity and breaking down stereotypes in the gay community so that men (and women) will know that we are not all like the propagated image defining “gay.” We don’t shun anyone, however that doesn’t mean we’re about to be best friends with everyone who don’t have similar interests and vibes. Just as the Post-Graduate College educated black person complains about the Thug Niggas, that doesn’t mean he’s self-hating or uncomfortable with who he is. That Thug Nigga doesn’t represent who he is nor does he have much in common, and in many ways perpetuates negative stereotypes about the entire group of people. Its human nature for him to seek out a-alikes.
Having said all that, joining the drag shows, gay club scene, gossip blogs, vogue contests, etc may be the solution for others out there, just not for me.
First if you like penis does that make you gay? Just joking and trying to lighten the vibe. LOL
Anyway dude you broke down your (our) truth and reality…I don’t need to say anything.
However…I understand the frustration of folks stating because you don’t fit into their box than something is wrong or you are lacking something.
Did I not just say that Nick, I said its not for me either but i don’t pass judgement for those who it is for, all i’m saying is those sex-crazed, attention seeking, messiness promoting, gossip hungry people are just one part of our community doesn’t mean it speaks for all of us with everything there’s a good and bad you just haven’t found the good yet, and if you have then my point is proven
Ok to me it sounds like most of you need some tough love on the advice on how to make platonic friendships…
First of all you have to let your guard down when meeting new gay men. DONT JUDGE THEM!
If like me if you dont find the sexually attractive then you dont have to worry, if you find out they like you more than a friend JUST assert yourself and say that your only interested in a friendship.
They can take it however WHO CARES. I have one good gay friend a few gay acquaintances and then they rest are my straight friends and girlfriends.
Im only in my early 20’s but I radiate confidence and I know I’ll only make more platonic gays friends when I least expect them to walk in my life.
Stop being insecure and just communicate your intentions when meeting new people.
Hey Kyle…I love the “tough love” but
You may not have the experiences i.e. baggage that many other gay men may have so therefore, this may not be something to overcome on your part.
Take yourself out of your personal situation/s and confidence level and see if you can offer a different type of advice for those of us who may not be on your level…does this make sense?
Again I am not necessarily speaking for myself but one has to understand love to understand tough love.
We welcome your response and we appreciate your feedback.
I think Kyle missed most of the point of this essay. This seemed to me to be about having more than one good gay friend and a few acquaintances. It also seemed to me to be about the pre-learned behavior in the gay lifestyle. We have gay men teaching other gay men that sex equals friendship. The advice Kyle gives is valid for everyone in that confidence and self esteem can go a long way, as does stating your intentions from the beginning and sticking to them. However, confidence alone won’t get a person a group of “best friends” if the options are all sex crazed and relationship hungry.
Ummm to revise my previous post. I want to direct it to guys whp arent as comfortable around gay/bi men. Like I said dont judge them, but you have to get to know them first. Its really the only way. Remember YOU HAVE THE POWER to get what you want! That means if its your will to make a friend then you will get it, If it your will to have a friend with benefits then you will get it! Make sense?
Remember its important for yall to open yourselves up.
“YOU HAVE THE POWER to get what you want!”
I like how you stated that. I was talking about that with someone when it comes to establishing relationships – that can be with a potential friend, a business partner, and a potential life partner. I think stating your intentions up front is absolutely the best way!
Good point Nick, I did miss that point lol.
If all your options are sex crazed and relationship hungry and confidence dont work….I suggest politely avoiding them, because I have been in that situation before. Don’t completely cut them off! They are human too and quite often sometimes they will get your point and come around just to be platonic friends though this may take months or years for them to get over the rejection of sex or relationships. I hope this helps.
Ocky, man, you BLEW MY MIND with this one. Another work of BRILLIANCE. When you really want to WRITE, you WRITE! I love it. Why and how did you BLOW MY MIND you may ask? EVERYTHING, I mean EVERYTHING you stated resonated with me deep to my core essence. I don’t have any friends PERIOD! Because I don’t want PRETENTIOUS people CLOSE to me. I have moved ALL negative people AWAY from me. I want friends, SURE I DO. But I don’t want friends based on SEX. I think many of us are sexually needy. We have to look at ourselves from a BIOLOGICAL perspective. Men, on average, make a 100 million sperm per day. These sperm are just itching/aching to GET OUT! I’ve been through enough crap that I refuse to settle for less and I want settle for less. It’s just a fact. I have never been in a secure relationship with another male. I am at a plateau in my life whereby if I have to DO ANYTHING FOR YOU, this relationship (I equate all human interactions as relationships as that is exactly what they are whether they be sexual, familial, friendships, acquaintances, buddies, FWB, etc.). Whatever type of giving I do it has to be reciprocated. If I talk, you must TALK also. If I drive, you must DRIVE also. It’s not literal, per se’, but hopefully will get where I am coming from. It’s not a true RELATIONSHIP if nothing is being equally exchanged. What I mean by EQUALLY is the exchange must be comparable to what I am bringing to the table. If I have to bring all the ideas, money, humor, driving, manliness to the relationship then I don’t want it. I nip in the bud from the word STOP and GO. I refuse to be drained of my energies. If I have to counsel, console, listen, then you must be able to at least do one.
Here’s the thing, it’s not that I THINK many of us are damaged, I KNOW many of us are damaged GOODS. So first thing first is that we have to therapeutic bonding. BONDING based just on getting pass all of our ISSUES. What you wrote was very CATHARTIC, but not just for you. You put it out there, you opened yourself up. That in and of itself is earth shattering on so many levels.
Thus you opened yourself up to criticisms, all of which I have read, and you made yourself vulnerable to let others see deep within your psyche. This is definitely a healing plea and a time to recognize the call when you hear it.
It is not that I too do not want friends, but I WILL NOT TOLERATE ANY CRAP, BS, DRAMA, SCAM, SCHEME, DUMB, BROKE, TALK TO MUCH people in my life. As I’ve stated, I cut them off at the pass. Most people are very needy. What I don’t let people get away with is not LOOKING IN THE MIRROR. When I hold that mirror up to many people THEY DON’T LIKE WHAT THEY SEE. Sad, but true. I don’t have time for games. START WITH THE MAN IN THE MIRROR. This is not directed at you, but at everyone. I always tell everyone this. Michale Jackson may have not heeded and taken his own medicine, but that doesn’t mean that the MEDICINE isn’t right, good, or offers a cure to what ails us all. “I’m starting with the man in the mirror I’m asking him to change his ways… if you wanna make the world a better place take a look in the mirror and MAKE THAT CHANGE.” Truer words have never been spoken.
I say that to say this. Whenever I encounter people and we start to engage on any level I always quote this to them. Because you need to look in the mirror and start making changes. What changes do you need to make? Look in the mirror and if you don’t like something about yourself CHANGE IT! At least work on changing it. START SOMEWHERE.
Right now DC is my only outlet for talking and meeting GAY MEN. I do adam4adam ocassionally but that is getting old, boring, and it’s really beneath me. I don’t do GAY BARS AND CLUBS. I don’t like the BS that comes with going in that atmosphere. They are MEAT MARKETS, built around casual sex encounters, and a reckless lifestyle. Until we stop patronizing those type ESTABLISHMENTS we will continue to do the same thing EXPECTING A DIFFERENT OUTCOME. That’s crazy!
Until WE, ALL GAY MEN OF COLOR, really contemplate and reflect on how to build serious loving and platonic friendships and relationships I will continue to be ALONE even though I don’t like being alone. I DON’T DO CLIQUES. I am usually on the fringes, but now I can SMELL a clique a MILE away. That is not for me. So I keep my distance.
I AM NOT UGLY, STUPID, DUMB, OR BROKE. I have a HUGE SKILL SET. I dress well when I’m feeling it, I speak well, I’m courteous, thoughtful, positive, idealistic, humorous, and at times witty. BUT I DON’T HAVE ANY FRIENDS. I don’t smoke WEED. I don’t smoke cigs. I don’t drink alcohol… maybe a beer or a nice mixed drink every now and then… I workout. BUT I DON’T HAVE ANY FRIENDS. I have my own place, my own ride, etc… I say all of this to say I FEEL YOU OCKY. I, too, have longed for real meaningful male bonding without all of the baggage that goes with it.
Hello again COSHAMO
I read your post and I have just one question:
If you had to look within, tell me something about YOURSELF that hinders your ability to make (and keep) platonic friendships with gay men.
_______________________
You listed quite a few accolades about yourself and that’s wonderful, but since many of us (including yourself) are being quite brave in our honesty, I’d like to hear your thoughts on the question I posed.
I don’t want any FAKE friendships not built on SOLID GROUND. I’ve met some nice looking men. I don’t know if I want to be in a friendship, let alone a relationship with them if I sleep with them. SEX should be the last piece of the puzzle. OCKY was SO ON POINT with this post. I can find plenty of PSEUDO FRIENDSHIPS, and there are people who call me friends now. That term is so LOOSELY, and OVERLY USED it’s pathetic. When building a friendship it goes through concrete stages of development. These stages are subject to dismantle or fold at anytime.
First, you become ACQUAINTED and get ACQUAINTED with one another – name, LITE conversation (exchange greetings – niceties and pleasantries, weather, sports – if you are into sports), general conversation about current events, niceties and pleasantries.
From there, you move on to the SECOND stage, and continue to talk and become more acquainted here and there – you become ASSOCIATES.
This is something I actually want to right about THOROUGHLY. This has been a TOPIC that has been brewing in my head for quite some time now. HOW TO BUILD REAL FRIENDSHIPS AND RELATIONSHIPS.
Black Pegasus, it actually takes WORK to build a FRIENDSHIP. Something that most people are not willing to do – WORK. We live in an INSTANT ON and OFF society. If we can’t microwave it we don’t want it BECAUSE … get this… IT TAKES TO LONG. How do you take off all of your clothes and go to bed with somebody and then TALK ABOUT BUILDING A FRIENDSHIP WITH THEM. IT never works. I have people who call me friends, but in my mind we ARE NOT FRIENDS. We are ACQUAINTANCES. Again the term is use so LOOSELY. Furthermore, I am very leery of people getting up in my mix. I need to know that you have no ULTERIOR motive. That this is genuine and not a “what I can do for you encounter.” I’ve had those with men and women.
Thus, Black Pegasus, I have values that are solidly in place. We cannot be friends if from the jump you are BROKE. That is not a friendship. We cannot be friends if from the jump I am running your errands with you and for you. We cannot be friends if from the jump you are needy – you need this and you need that. Uh uh, it ain’t gonna work. We can’t be friends if you are thinned skin. If you can’t accept constructive, and not so constructive criticism – we are grown, WE ARE MEN – then it isn’t gonna work if every time I say something to you you HAVE TO CRY about it.
We are quick to jump in the bed with one another because WE DON’T WANT TO DO THE REAL WORK IT TAKES TO BUILD A TRUE FRIENDSHIP – STRAIGHT AND/OR GAY.
True friendship is hard to find within any community. The lines tend to get blurred when the friendship is between two gay dudes because on one hand if you meet someone who turns into your best friend over time, especially if it’s someone you’re attracted to, why not make them your partner?
Another thing I think we do as gay men is try to leave that slot of potential partner open when we select our friends because we’re subconsciously looking for someone cool that we can settle down with, and who doesn’t want to marry their best friend?
And I use “marry” loosely just to make my point.
I know a lot of people, and many of them I consider my best friends. The degree of our history and relationship varies from group to group, but the love I have for them is pure. I’m also blessed to have a crew of gay friends mixed into this category, but what you’ve written resonates wholly with me because a few of them have been talking about moving from our city to continue the progression of their lives.
I honestly don’t want to go out and find another group because there will never be a reincarnation of them and what they mean to me. And living in this lifestyle can get very lonely when you take into consideration the fact that a lot of gay men are messy. That’s a fact. Regardless of masculine, feminine or whatever. Most gay men have a shitload of issues that they don’t want to deal with that keeps them at arm’s length from opening up to new people or remaining loyal to the friends that they do have.
As with anything else in life sometimes you have to let go and just live. If it’s meant for you to have more strong masculine friends in your life like Nick and your partner it will happen, but only if you feel it’s 100% necessary. And if it’s something you truly desire I hope you get it brotha. Because it’s always nice to know you have a rock solid group of people you can rely on and lean on when you need them the most.
@Ocky…I read your piece and felt the sincere pain you have. The old african proverb ‘it takes a village’ surely applies here. The ‘village’ that raised you has made you seeking for honesty and value in this thing called ‘a friend.’ You did not find it and you moved on still battling with yourself and then you found Nick. Took you a while but at least you found what you are looking for in just one person. I say this to say we all have a different path to trod in this thing called life… no 2 persons fate will be similar…none. If you can find just one person to call a friend then my brother you are the luckiest person. If you are looking for a similar “band of brothers” like your past lover, you wont find it. But you have found 1 good friend. That is your pot of gold. Nurture it, caress it and pray it continues to take you to a place where you can be free. After all a friend does just that- it intertwines with your soul to form one. Too often we get confused with having a FB of friends to give value to our existence. No. Friendship is over-rated. It really is. At the end of the day a ‘friend’ gives our life a little more meaning and value….nothing else. But you still have to travel this road alone. Every wife, friend, group, band of brothers must understand that we will never know each other truthfully as human beings because we are too complicated. So our 2 choices are 1. approach with suspicion or 2. approach openly. Choose the latter to be a friend
Never experienced the band of brothers thing. Largely because I’ve been DL for the most part. So hanging out with other dudes that were mostly heterosexual scared me a little. To the point now that I’m in my 30s and only have a few gay friends. Most of my friends are straight. And I’m fine with that. Except for the fact that I can’t always speak with them about matters involving relationships and sexuality with someone that is familiar with it from a personal standpoint.
I’ve gone to MeetUp.com group of masculine gay dudes in my area. It was nice enough, but I didn’t really feel like I clicked with any of them. If anything, it taught me that the definition of masculine varied depending on who you spoke with. My friends and I have similar interests, levels of educational attainment, and aspirations. But I happen to be the only one amongst them that is also attracted to other dudes. I wish I could find other dudes “like me,” but I have yet to have any success in that area.
Over the years, I’ve met dudes on hook up sites and found some of them to be great people outside of our sexual interaction. I’ve only initiated friendship with one of them. And after some reflection, I decided to terminate that friendship. I don’t want to be the guy you described above as having had the prerequisite of sexual interaction with his gay friends. I also wasn’t interested in having the genesis of that friendship impede my prospective relationship with my long term partner…
@ocky I recently listened to your podcast and I’m relieved to know it’s not just me. This was a great read it hit on some issues I currently have; basically the isolation part and being comfortable being alone, because I’ve had the longing for a bond with some type of substance but the guy I thought I could have that with always wants something sexual. It is irritating and trying to teach that old dog a new trick and it is so blatant when trying to get that message across to him.