Ocky Williams’ response to someone on Facebook…
“I am aware of those documentaries (How Do I Look and Paris is Burning) but don’t have a desire to view them as I am not interested in that culture. Everything isn’t for everybody and I’m ok with that.”
The below response is to my response from a different Facebook’r than the one I was dialoging with;
“…strikes me as regrettable that someone can say they’re not interested in somethng that they havent been exposed to or know anything about. sad to think what such a person is missing-even just as an engaging piece of documentary filmmaking-let alone a touching, moving lens on simple HUMAN experience- ‘Paris’ is exemplary. smh. #AClosedMindSureIsADarkPlace“.
Closed Mind?
This below video was posted to YouTube by presumably someone who IS in the Ball Culture AND can be seen participating at the Ball footage uploaded.
People heavily involved in the Ball Culture have posted numerous videos online. By simply watching the videos (like folks watch a preview to a movie), I can see I don’t want any part of this. Just like I didn’t want any part in Amazing Spider Man 2 or American Horror Story Coven. How does that make me a bad gay or a closed minded gay? As I have said before and will continue to state, everything isn’t for everybody. This is not a negative statement. Nonetheless I do feel the above Facebook response is typical from the more “cultured” or “enlightened” gays within the community.
If you have not lived how they lived, then therefore you haven’t lived honey. Regardless if I’m interested or not interested in all things gay, I should force myself to experience it because there is an off chance I might like it.? To see half naked men glide down a cat walk with oiled up bodies, men in drag and transgenders showing you how “womanly” they are, all while giving face is a part of the gay experience that my ignorant mind has yet to capture.
I also don’t like baseball, tennis and golf. Does that mean I’m an unenlightened uncultured neanderthalic masculine oaf? Who cares about all the non-sexual, non-Ball-related things that I love; like science, cosmology, nature, fishing, aeronautics, animals, history, gay films (DL Chronicles: Episode Thomas; OMG) and documentaries? No I’m not as cultured as I would like to be but does that mean I need to force myself to experience something that I feel adds no personal value to my spirit? What else do I need to do as a gay man to be a full-fledged homosexual? March in a Gay Pride Parade, go to a bath house, participate at the Folsom Street Festival, have a hook up off of a mobile app…because you know, all that’s a part of the culture too right?
I have no problem with the participants of Balls; why would I? There is no reason to. They are obviously having fun and having a good time while bonding with others in their community. I think it’s a great thing…for them.
Dear internet cultured gays, if you want people to respect you and allow you to live, learn how to do the same for others and stop being so judgmental. Me doing gay different from you, doesn’t make my gay wrong and yours right OR my gay experience less cultured. Gays are not a monolith. Get outta my face!
I see both sides of the issue. I personally don’t like scandaland that apparently makes me a bad gay. I still havent seen tbis Jackies Back mvie
movie which ive been told makes me a bad gay. Somethings just arent for evwryone. O have been told house of cards is amazing..i dont care. Doesnt look interesting. However i think sometimes you discover things you might like. I saw Paris is Burning by mistake and i was blown away. Not by the subject matter as the ball seen isnt on my radar but it was amazinglyvwell done just as a documentary.
Typos. You been drinking, @hannibal?
I have been drinking but the typos can be attributed more to me using my phone which is crazy…but you get ny point
Yea, sorry that is a bit close minded. There’s a difference between doing everything that’s part of a culture and being cultured by experiencing the classic touchstones of a culture, even if and especially if, it isn’t one you share. Amazing Spiderman is an entirely other matter, not a culturally important film.
And the hostility against that community in the piece is crystal.
there it is again…a “touchstones of a culture” according to who and to who’s culture? Why does your truth & culture have to be my truth & culture? If its not, one is closed minded? Again…black gays are not a monolith. #Getouttamyface.
It’s not my culture or truth, that’s the point.
The gay community is steeped in political correctness. In other words, many of the group are not capable of having rational discussion or debate because of their hyper-sensitivity…I don’t even engage them because they raise my blood pressure.
How did you come to this conclusion?
Have you tried to sit and have a conversation with these “hyper-sensitive” gay men?
Having conversations with them and seeing their behavior…it’s not rocket science. The minute you are even the slightest bit critical of gay men’s behavior whether it be the over-glamorization of flamboyance or the hyper-sexual culture, they’re ready to attack. There’s hardly a discussion. And I’ve tried several occasions…they argue with their emotions and not logic.
Well I cant confirm or deny what you have done, so I cant argue that point.
What I will say is to classify a group of people, I myself included, as “hyper-sensitive” because we are passionate about what we are speaking about is a double standard. If we were “masculine” men talking about sports or cars and was that passionate, it would be ok. But because we are “feminine” and display that same type of passion is perceived as being hyper-sensitive.
I can respect Ocky saying its not his thing, and I am a firm believer everything is not for everyone.
The problem I have is when people say stuff like, them gays over there do that and they disgust me. At the end of they day we are all gay.
I have seen several visitors to this cite express similar points and I’m always perplexed cause to like penis, no matter how you outwardly present yourself, is feminine.
Not to be for or against your comments or Isaac’s. People can be hyper sensitive and overly PC regardless of gender or sexuality. I have concerns when gays pretend that gays cant be these things along with being bullies, jerks, racists, judgmental and all around assholes.
I felt like the person on Facebook implied if I don’t like or if I’m not into what the majority of gays are into then therefore I’m not cultured and have a closed mind…which is something I get a lot of from gays in the community.
You are right. I would never say a feminine gay man cant be a bully, jerk, a-hole, and any other name you can think of.
I agree with you, he was saying that about you and that is his closed minded opinion. If you don’t like it I wouldn’t want you to.
What grinds my gears is when people degrade someone for their personal taste and many “men” that come here do.
@ishmal – “…cause to like penis, no matter how you outwardly present yourself, is feminine.” Sorry, this is off the main topic. This statement is kinda asinine. A man being sexually/emotionally attracted to another man (i.e. liking penis, as you put it, is not imo a identifier of femininity. I’m intrigued very much so by it, but in no way shape or form do I consider myself effeminate. It’s just a part of a dude’s body that I happen to have an interest in, just like Im intrigued by a dude’s hands.
Meant to say…”Sorry that my comment/ response is off topic”.
That comment may have been a little tactless.
What I should have said is to like masculinity, whether it the penis literally, the feel of a man’s hard body, aggression, power, or whatever it is masculine that makes you attracted to men, is feminine.
I say that because if you do not like any part of maleness or masculinity, then you would like woman and be straight.
That comment applies because Isaac described femininity with such disdain and to have any type of attraction to men/masculinity is feminine itself.
I’m still not following your logic, my dude. Unless you’re speaking of attraction to male from a “biological” standpoint in which male is “programmed” to be paired with female, therefore in the case a male being paired with another male, one or both of the two has to take on the “feminine” aspect (not necessarily feminine in demeanor, but by role association), in which case…eh….I still don’t agree. But, it is what it is, I guess.
@Ishmal I never once mentioned femininity in my comment. You jumped to that conclusion. There are hyper-sensitive masculine men who when you try to discuss them their egos and testosterone levels fly off of the chart. I am not the most masculine gay, I have some feminine qualities myself. So I wasn’t attacking femininity, I was just talking about some of the responses we get when critiquing certain behaviors in the gay community while marginalizing others.
So flamboyance is not the same as femininity?
No, it isn’t. It means showy. There are flamboyant things that some masculine men do like wearing revealing clothing that shows off their bodies or having to over-do-it if they’re in a sports car or something. But let’s just say I was referencing femininity. I NEVER attacked it! I said it is over-glamourized in the gay community when there are masculine gays as well who are constantly chastised when simply asking “hey, can we have representation too?” When they do, they get emotionally charged responses as if they are bullies or something for simply wanting an alternative rep of gay.
+ 1000000
This is why there is such a golf between all the lgbt sports people coming out vs the image of gays mainstream gay men have pushed to only be seen on TV or the media.
Dude lol, travel the world! If you think being flamboyant is fem…..dang…you have never traveled across Africa, Asia, Europe or the Middle East-where men wear dresses but lol, they call it tunics.
I was watching yesterday a beautiful documentary about a tribe in Mali, West Africa who are desert people. They have their long and in braids. Wear long skirts and in a ‘sexual initiation’ to attract the opposite sex…wear make up!
Even in your own backyard with native American cultures were the men keep their hair long or/and believe in ‘2 spirited’ beings (same sex pairings).
The pygmy tribe in central Africa. The men breast feed the children as well as the women. The women hunt as well as the men.
To add, another desert tribe in Western Africa. It’s a woman’s role to seek water across TEN dunes because women make better navigators. The mother at one point gave the reigns to her 10 year old girl. This girl was leading a group consisting of 10 camels plus men and women. She succeeded in bringing water to the whole village after a grueling day of searching water.
Liking penis does not equate being feminine, unless you don’t biologically believe in homosexuality as something fixed but something ‘wrong’ or/and born out of nurture, not nature. And you know, I think many gay men agree with you, which is why the black gay movement specifically, is so disjointed and working at such a slow speed.
Sad. And very ill informed. A good 30 mins of searching for reputable critical essays online, would give you so many answers.
@ocky lol…to funny…you get 10 points for that
@john and @isaac I know that word has more than one definition gentlemen. However we are talking about here in this country and in this time, and when you say flamboyant the first image that comes to mind is an extremely feminine man. So PLEASE don’t try to play with words with me. I think some of you young men need to travel to realize that there is nothing wrong with femininity and one expressing themselves.
And if that is your opinion, that is fine.
But I find it interesting that some of you guys will degrade, berate, and belittle people for femininity without knowing anything about them or their life, but don’t see that as divisive behavior.
@Ishmal “So flamboyance is not the same as femininity?”
Say what now?
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Truth!
I think I see both sides of this. I’ve watched many gay films and documentaries because they’re just funny to watch and laugh at the gay buffoonery. They are actually fun to joke about with a friend or two.
I believe the main criticism comes when a person is aggressively adverse to even attempting to see these films. I doubt if someone started playing Amazing Spiderman 2 or American Horror Story Coven on television the reaction would be as negative as if a gay ballroom documentary were played.
Good point. Its like when a movie is released in theaters and you have no interest AT ALL in seeing it, but then it comes on TV two years later and you find yourself watching the whole movie. I completely understand the point of this article, but when it comes to some things in life you’ll never know until you try it. Shit, I might try some pussy before the year is over who knows. LOL
Personally, I’m aggressively adverse to not watching a lot of things. Movies I (Ocky and only Ocky) deem to be stereotypical and also of non-interest, I will not watch. The same way I don’t want to see the documentaries mentioned I also don’t want to see and don’t view black stereotypical comedies. Does that mean I’m doing black wrong also?
Is there anyway we can let folks dislike what they don’t like without overly psychoanalyzing? #Getouttamyface
You’re being disingenuous for the Internet. You know full well if I played Ride Along on the TV at my crib as background noise you would not be as aggressively opposed to it as you would a Gay ballroom documentary.
Its not that I don’t understand your argument…but keep in mind how I protested the entire time you played that black trash of a soft core vampire movie as back ground noise? If we are going to compare the two…you are right. I would have a stronger aversion to the flamboyant gayness and imagery on screen. What’s wrong with that?
…but wait…didn’t you say the Ball Room French Gay Voguing film was “Gross”
(http://cypheravenue.com/vice-documentary-on-black-french-voguers-why-is-this-gross-to-me/)? You didn’t just say “I don’t like it” or “wasn’t for me”…but “gross”. Talk about being disingenuous.
I don’t have to and will not force myself to watch a film for the sake of the internet and gay PC police to view me as open minded. I’m good with me and my dislikes! #stopplaying oh and #Getouttamyface LOL
I said the French Voguing doc was gross only after watching it. By your rationale its acceptable to be the guy constantly complaining at a party about the music.
You were my guest and the corny soft core black vampire movie (http://cypheravenue.com/film-review-immortal-kiss-queen-of-the-night/) that I played was obviously put on so that we could riff on it while looking at eye candy as we downed a couple drinks.
I think Being so aggressive against exposing yourself to music or media just because its “Gay” is like when Christians aggressively shut down while hearing valid points made by an atheist. I’ll admit that I dislike and complain about certain Facebook groups and Twitter profiles being overly gay, but guess what, I’m still in those Facebook groups and I still log onto Twitter, lol.
and my reply is…there is nothing wrong with that because its what you wanted to look at at that time concerning gay media.
You looked at it just as I look at the “Life Atlanta” but does that mean I now have to look at all gay media to satisfy “something” or be apart of? I looked at the French Vougin film but because I haven’t seen the bastion of gayness concerning the two documentaries mentioned, I’m close minded?
Look at all the gay media I already consume…why is that not good enough? Stop with this madness.
I don’t see what the problem is. Just because we all share the attraction to the same sex does not mean we share the same interests. I will watch some gay themed films and shows whether I think they will be good or utter trash. Usually, if I can be entertained, I’m good with it. Now I will say I’ve never been to a Ball and don’t have any interest in going. It’s not my thing. I prefer not to be around too many extra, over-the-top people and I don’t think there is anything wrong with that. To me there is no protocol to follow to be gay just like there is no protocol to follow to be black, but opinions differ.
I feel the same way. One thing I’ve had to check myself on in recent years is allowing people the space to be their version of gay. I’m very chill, mellow, boy next door type who you’d never was gay unless I told you. I’ve encountered gay men who would tell me “you’re still GAY” which would be their way of trying to make me feel comfortable with doing anything that I felt was out of character for me. Some gays have ideals they subscribe to that don’t fit me which is fine. Just as I’m sure my way of life may not be suitable for their lives. It’s about giving everyone the opportunity to just be themselves without making the next man feel like they’re less than. Being apart of a larger minority group that’s still struggling to gain legs as far as widely accepted culture goes makes this difficult.
To the point, I’ve never seen Paris Is Burning nor am I interested in the ball scene. However, I do plan to watch it just to be knowledgeable. I’ve heard it was a good documentary so I’ll eventually give it a shot.
I’ve seen it more times than I’m willing to admit, actually LOL. I’m a history buff, and despite the subject matter being based on the Ballroom Scene, it is a type of history. Aside from the point that it is a good documentary, it gives a little insight into what young Latin and Black gay men had to struggle with in the early 80’s, and in some way is kinda sad. I’ve mentioned before, my intro to the “Gay Life” was the whole ballroom/ vogue/ shady ass-ness (smh), which I got over real f#$kin quick, however it sparked a curiosity in me to research how shit came to be the way it is with this particular scene, where it started and how far back the shit goes. I don’t identify at all with this aspect of the gay culture and I honestly find the better majority of it’s members deplorable at best, but I find the whole history of it informative and interesting.
I saw PIB on YouTube. It’s not hard to find.
It is a good documentary. I have always wanted to know more of how black gay men dealt with and came to terms with themselves years ago, even though, our history, black history, gets erased and swept under the rug.
Like, the one scene in D’Jango where he’s hanging naked and the guy caressed his junk made me think: oh wait! Whatever happened to the MEN who were used as sex slaves for gay white masters? It never occurred to me to think of such things until I saw that.
So, it’s interesting to me as a point in history, PIB, but I just do not have any interest in participating in drag/ball culture. And that’s okay because most of them will never understand the excitement I get every 8 years when the new video game systems are released or every year after Google announces the next Nexus phones and the world still turns all the same.
While I do believe that being exposed to different things is good because it helps to broaden a perspective and enlighten on things unfamiliar.. you like what you like.. and you do not like what you do not like. Whether you are gay, bisexual, straight, or otherwise that is (and should be) no script nor are there rules (unless you choose to subscribe to one of the many subcultures).
Culture is something that tends to be man-made or evolves to be what it is out of circumstance or necessity. For those looked are not accepted in mainstream society, it is can be a source of identity and community… a place to belong.
All this being said we are all free-willed unique individuals with unique desires and interests and the ability to choose. To judge someone because they do not subscribe to your personal views or the rules of your culture is pitiful. Likewise to denigrate a culture/view because it’s not your thing is equally as pitiful.
If it’s not hurting anyone, move on and mind your business.
Man, fuck that shit…
Observation: for you two to have such a strong dislike for the ballroom scene, somehow this topic keeps surfacing on this website, replete with videos for illustration. #imjustsaying
Now, I’ve never attended a ball and don’t really plan on it, but I do respect the creativity and sheer genius that these young men display, regardless of my personal feelings on the scene. From what I’m reading on this site it sounds as if it has less to do with having a closed mind and more to do with some insecurity. You’d probably be open to at least viewing the video if, in your mind, you didn’t think it would be an affront to your masculinity that you hold so tightly to your chest.
Recommendation: Watch the video you posted. No one is going to confiscate your masculinity card and punch a hole through it like they do at the DMV.
OMG…you figured me out. I’m a secret queen who is the belle of all the balls…smh. Even though there is plenty I could say in response but everyday I’m learning not to attempt rational logical conversation via the internet with irrational people on particular topics. As always, thanks for visiting.
I didn’t say, or even infer, that you were a queen @Ocky. So, who’s the irrational one here?
You are an expert at inserting a straw man argument into almost any conversation. Do you conduct classes on how to utilize this technique?
Yeah,str8-up quick to pull that straw-man line. He got me but the gif just made it funnier. LOL
Sometimes I come here to read the comments and get a few chuckles in during my lunch hour. I feel like I need to get one of my screen play friends to make a satirical romantic comedy drama thriller play feature an awesome cast of opinionated people.
Whether or not you like the gay ball scene you have to give respect to the brothas that do it. Just like any art form it takes alot of creativity and talent. Can’t knock the hustle.
Agree, disagree or whatever; I appreciate and love you sumsabitches for taking the time to leave your feedback! Different POVs, snark, sarcasm, gifs and thought provoking comments add to the Cypher Avenue experience.
Is this convo seriously still happening? Do you and stop believing the hype that you need to apologize for it. I aint got no time for balls/drag shows. And???
lol It will never end!
I’m not sure of the point of all this. A movie about some gay people is just a movie about some gay people. Documentary or drama. Just like watching Menace to Society, it doesn’t mean the story is about you or that you have to be the characters and make the choices they’ve made. I don’t know why this is even a conversation. Paris Is Burning is highly recommended but upon the opportunity of seeing it, you say no thanks. Why? I have no desire to give face or vogue with shiny clothes on, but I see the power of the individuals in the documentary. I see their strength, commitment and integrity. It takes a lot to be different and to show up in the world with heart…I’m impressed and can learn from it. I say don’t deny yourself a potentially great experience based on…God only knows. Sure, do you. But damn, you’ve posted about your disinterest in seeing a powerful display of humanity for the sake of…what? Because you don’t go to balls. Ok. Eat a cookie. Congratulations. Your disinterest says more about the negativity of your spirit than anything else. Step outside of yourself sometimes. Or not. But why post about your closed-mindedness, especially when you don’t have to be? Be better. Post smarter. I’d rather read your review of the documentary than some B.S. about why you won’t watch it. A waste of time. That’s like me saying I hate your website even though I’ve never been to it. Take two seats. Go watch it or don’t bring it up. Sheesh.
But why is it a problem for someone to not want to watch it?
I mean, people do have genuine disinterest in things. For example, I’m not going to watch the early morning hunting and fishing shows that are broadcast on television every weekend because I have no interest in the latest in crappie fishing and crappie fishing accessories.
Exactly. I have not seen, nor do I have any interest in seeing for example… the movie “Love and Basketball”, “Think Like a Man”, “The Best Man Holiday” etc, never seen “Scandal”, and have no interest in seeing “The Expendables”. I don’t see Ock as being “irrational” about not wantin’ to see “Paris is Burning”, it is what it is. I have no interest in seeing the same stories told ad nauseam, no interest in “Scandal” probably for the same reasons Ock has no interest in “PIB”, and I have no interest in seeing a group of “past their prime’ action actors. To each his/her own.
Trying to keep it light. You should really give the Best Man Holiday a chance, like say if your future lover man wants to watch it, consider compromising on that one. That was a pretty damn good movie. lol
See there it is again…and I may add you seem to overlook the context. I would bet there are no persons on this planet that have seen every movie and or every “good” movie.
Someone not wanting to see a movie that they are not interested in seeing, should not force themselves to see it simply to appease the gay masses. Why? If they don’t want to see it they are close minded??? How do you not recognize that by making these statements you are being judgmental? Everything glorious about the said movie should not automatically equal I should view it for the sake of viewing. Why?
Personal interest concerning something as simple as a type of movie should not have this strong a reaction from the gay zombies. Fall back and stop being so damn judgmental because I don’t want to see a movie you like.
I get it. I just don’t agree. As a stranger to you, it’s a lot more entertaining to read about your interests and what you’ve done or seen, not your disinterests in what you won’t do or see. If you don’t want to watch the movie, then by all means don’t. Your reviews are what brought me to this website and they have made me laugh like a fool. Makes me wonder what you guys think of other movies, like say…Paris Is Burning. But hey, that won’t happen, at least not from you. And I’m ok with that. I just can’t grasp why I would read a post about what you’re not interested in doing. Why share? What’s being posted next week in the No Judgment/Things I Haven’t Seen and Won’t See series? I can’t wait to not read it. Oh wait, yes I can. I can definitely wait to not read it. No judgment. This is pure disinterest. Something you’re familiar with. Like you said, it would add no personal value to my spirit.
Point missed.
First, the post was not about what I will not or do not want to watch; it was about the gay pc police judging someone because one doesn’t do what they do within the gay culture or watch what they want you to watch. In your first comment your judgements were already cast.
Second, Nick is mostly the one who writes reviews, not myself.
I really appreciate this perspective, I just sense this undertow of ‘disgust’ or betrayal – that the feminine within us is as disliked as much as the feminine in women. Behind it all I feel is still a central misogyny – a unease with feminine energy anywhere it arises- whether in a female or male body or an in-between body. Feminine traits cannot be superlative why? – is masculinity not the main event? We organize industries of sports where masculine men wear skimpy super hero outfits and we watch them juggle their balls, cheer them on, put our hopes and dreams in them, pay them exorbitantly and pay out taxes for the houses of worship we call stadiums. Only houses of worship are tax-free. Masculinity is The Religion and religions have their fanatics, religions act as if they are always under siege. I think the black masculine man has been denied this sense of brotherhood with other men – the benefits of masculinity. I’ve just experienced such beauty and acceptance among feminine gay men – and they fight hard for the little ground they live on. They provide us with much of the language that makes our lives articulated. I would say that femme gay men have also brought a lot of joy to the world whether its in these media competitions for fashion or performance. They extend the territory of freedom, how you can be and do. Add color to a world always moving towards the drab and conformed.
Much of the time your oppression unfortunately can ugly your character. I just don’t see how feminine men are alone in being degraded by what’s vulgar in our communities. They’ve been the vanguard of our representation – feel free to fill in the other parts of who we are. I think this website experience is doing that by the way. I think masculine gay men should focus also on where I think their trouble begins. In how the measure themselves against straight men. Their fathers, their brothers, our leaders our heroes. Claim what’s masculine in you – speak up for us don’t run away from us.
I guess that reading these wonderfully crafted posts has given me some clarity. No matter how I express myself, that I’ve never been ‘good at being gay’ – that depending on the moment or the person observing me I have been seen as more masculine or more feminine. I like the underdog who is in the fight most rounds. I’ll be in the femme section thank you. Among those who wear make up as war paint, who sing gospel, who prance, that suck dick like it’s an art form, who speak with funny voices, who sew, who dance with winding hips, who cry. Who’ve made your masculine lives better too.