You have a self-described masculine gay man.
He follows and adores all the pop and R&B divas. He can name every character from Reality TV. He loves fashion and is a super trendy uber metrosexual. He uses all the gay lingo and terminologies. He is a celebrity gossip hound and he usually refers to or describes other men in female nouns such as girl, she and her.
So is a masculine gay man who is immersed in typical gay culture really masculine? The question is being posed this way because in my opinion gay culture is disproportionately feminine.
Well, I think it’s subjective, but yes. Why can’t he like all those things, still be into sports, cars, action movies etc and act and carry himself in a masculine way? You didn’t say he carried himself or spoke in a feminine manner. You can be multi-faceted and have varying likes and you shouldn’t have to worry about your masculinity being questioned.
You are adding to or providing additional examples to make your answer stick. No examples of traditional masculine interests were given or posed in the question.
That’s exactly my point, so how are we to know if they exist or not? You didn’t say they weren’t there either. It’s hard to question something as big as that based on those simple criteria.
Base it on your experience. I’ve lived around and travelled the world. Men in England rarely wear baggy trousers. Men in India wear skirts if they are working class. Men in Asia are very fey and feminine.
But they would not have those interests because the male mind is wired differently-ask straight women! They will tell you.
I know the dandiest of men whilst living here in the UK, know of straight men who love dressing in drag and many men in Europe dance to bad dance music by Rihanna. But you try and get them to watch the housewives or buy pop music or gossip instead of engaging in politics……not going to happen.
Right, I just finished living in France for 6 months, and I’ve seen and interacted with some straight dudes who were just “European” in their dress and actions. I also know PLENTY of straight dudes who watch reality TV (Housewives included) and even use terms like “shade” and are very hetero and happily married to women. Are they not masculine?
All I’m saying is we all know sexuality is fluid and on a spectrum, why does masculinity have to fall into such rigid constraints of masc-“in-between”-fem. Why can’t that be on a spectrum as well?
My point Exactly. True about the European part, I found that mostly in Spanish,English and Swedish straight guys.
Fellas, fellas, fellas….You can be Heterosexual and feminine. It can happen. There are tons of straight men with effeminate traits. They are feminine men. This post was about masculinity in Gay Men though, something I think that is very different given how the “gay Culture” is defined by feminine pride and envying the lives, struggles and style of women.
I would argue that even with the examples you guys provided the men in these various cultures are more feminine than masculine. It seems to me that you all are arguging that the fact that they are straight and have these different characteristics means they are automatically masculine and cannot be feminine. I’ve come across plenty of straight men that posses many feminine traits. Some straight men are not as masculine as others. I hear the point you guys are trying to make. It’s all subjective though. I feel the guy that ocky described above is not masculilne, just my opinion.
Depends what you view masculinity as. Why does he think he is masc? Because he is physically tough looking? Or very male in how he behaves?
The gay community is very superficial and very…non welcoming. So I can see many men-and know of-who were typical basic guys who became more interested in gay community stuff because they were bullied into it and told they were being ‘hetronormative’ etc. Similar to black folk who don’t want to be thugs or dumb jocks or act in some dumb uniform, they are quickly perceived as not being black enough by other blacks and then start to appropriate that culture.
I went through it in my late teens to early twenties, think I wasn’t black enough. I got over once I went to university and grew a spine.
I think it’s the same with these guys, many, especially those who come from small towns/cities, finally find a scene where people superficially are like them-me,I was always the only black person among white people in the suburbs-and feel a desperate need to ‘fit in’.
Does it make them less masc? Not really. As it is superficial and a social construct.
What is depressing but ironic is how desperately the gay community-white&black-has clung on to social constructs to define themselves instead of what they actually FEEL.
I always say this on gay sites I go to-what about gays from other countries or cultures who have never heard of Western society; Beyonce, Housewives or Lady Gaga?. Of course no one answers me but really this is all so superficial and not..real.
Masculinity is not a social construct. It’s the innate sense of needing to protect, lead, thinking in a single minded manner, using logic, avoiding drama and wanting a linear existence. You be into all these things above BUT it does say a lot when you embrace that so much, as us men run away from Drama and very predictable in what we like to watch/see/behave.
Like I said, lets look at culture. This person sounds like they are conforming if they feel masculine. I have worked with ALL sorts of men AND went to a private boarding school for boys…..
I’m sorry but we are simpler then women. We don’t like drama or diversion. Those interests seem strange if you claim to be a typical guy.
To answer the question in the world it was proposed, no.
When a man starts referring to other males with female pronouns, he’s traded in his masculinity card. You can be trendy in the wardrobe department, keep up with celebs, but the gay lingo and slang kills it.
They just have to accept it.
Yea, I agree. Im not gonna take a dudes masc card away becus he’s into fashion, likes Beyonce and watches Love and Hip Hop, but I would give him a ‘ur prob gay’ stamp.
But I def dont think you cant like some things that are stereotypically associated w women and be a masc dude.
However…once u start calling mofos girl…
Also, I think theres a propensity for us to associate anything thats associated w gay men, as automatically not masc, and anything not ‘gay popular’, as masc. Ijs
But I get the point at the end of the day. A lot of gay men who think they’re masc, simply, aren’t.
Yeah I mean “shade” is mainstream now. People are using it left and right. But “coins” “trade ” get your life” “live for “” Yaaaassssss “… I don’t see those crossing over into straight male lexicon.
I really think this is a generational/social thing…I have heard/read str8 men, in their mid to late twenties (my age group) using more terms than just shade (including “live for” and “tea”)…sure, they may not say “whats the tea” but they might say “thats some tea for that ass,” same difference. At first it took me off guard, but I realized a lot more dudes, especially in the context of college/post-college in my experience, have friends and frat bros that may have come out as gay that they are still close to. In the context I am speaking about, gays and str8s co-mingle often, at least in school, social org settings, so it just becomes another term. Do I think this is/would be the case with older ppl, no (then again I wouldn’t know) but I think younger generations, generally, are less rigid with this type of stuff.
Don’t forget…”BIIIIIItch” and “AWL-ROIGHT HUN-TEY” LOL!!!
GESUS CHRIST!
All Sites I have been on this week have a ”Masculinity” Post. Huff, Queerty, and Cypher. What is going on, is Masculinity under that much threat that it must be strictly defined and confined to particular set of features,characters and traits?
I am just asking not from a professional or skilled point of view,but as someone who just wants to understand why so much fuss about it. Thx
I would just add this, that Masculinity is subjective. Various individuals from various works of life have their interpretations of what they deem or see fit as masculine and each one of those interpretations, as different as they are, all equal. No one more superior or inferior to the other but all one.
Sorry but masculinity has pretty much always been front and center on Cypher Avenue since our inception. We don’t marginalize it like those other sites you’ve named.
I did not mean its marginalization, but the fact that it being talked about a lot and brings on so much debate/comment.
You know, heterosexual sites have been talking about the ‘femetization’ of the black male too which is basically another way of talking about masculinity.
This is not a topic just for the gays to debate.
you are right, its not just a gay debate…and I am tired of reading female posts on my social media spaces referring to the “feminization” of the black man, it’s f’ing annoying, black men are real ppl with differences just like everyone else, not some “idea” women have conjured up about how someone “should” be or behave…let ppl be who they are and find someone for that works for you, there are plenty of men that would be considered masculine in the “traditional” context out there…
Given the man’s description in this scenario, many may surmise that he is not masculine. The concept of masculinity is apparently interpretational for some; maybe even on a sliding scale. Some may even subscribe to the notion that being masculine does not equate to being machismo or manly.
Personally, I wouldn’t consider him machismo given his usage of the female pronoun to describe other males but the description just portrays him as dapper and not a gender-bender so he may possess certain masculine traits.
Perception is the fundamental principle here.
Identity politics has always been the root of LGBT peoples, it is what makes all people who identify as LBGT/SGL what we are.
Perception is “the ability to see, hear, or become aware of something through the senses” or “a way of regarding, understanding, or interpreting something; a mental impression” (Google, Dictionary).
That being said we all have a different understanding and views of what we consider masculine. I suspect that if we were to survey 1,000 people every single person would have a different opinion. That is where identity comes into play. How a people considers themselves is how we understand each other. I honestly don’t think there is a standard overt look for what is or what is not masculine. There are characteristics but those very on many degrees. For example, if a man who has a outward appearance that is not associated with gay but he speaks with a gay voice does that make him not masculine? What about the men who have outward standard appearances but dress extremely well or may wear a deep V from time to time does that make him less masculine? What if all the characteristic he exhibits are the manliest of things such as drinking dark liquor, playing sport, lives like a slob and bromances with straight brothern but is a total submissive bottom does that make him less masculine? Perception. Its is fundamental. Everything is arbitrary when it doesn’t pertain to you.
Dayo Okeniyi (The Hunger Games) – That image is not to intend that he is gay or identifies as such. I was simply using his image as an example.
Bitch, you really tried it with this post! Girl, bye!! Don’t make me spill the tea on you for trying to read masculine men like myself who live in their truth!
I usually equate masculinity with a level of dominance.
Let’s make this easy. Everyone is has potential to fully and healthfully integrate the masculine and feminine psyche within. It’s a process you can engage. Otherwise you’ll lean one way or another depending on nurturing ,environment and genetics.
Negative feminine traits:
Frivolousness, neediness, vanity, naivety, overly sensitive, squeamishness, prudishness, clingyness, helplessness, dependency, excessively emotional, obsessed with personal appearance, primping, lacking self-confidence, indecisiveness, excessive passivity, insecurity.
Negative masculine traits:
Arrogance, aggression, egotistical, risky behaviour, callousness, non-communicative, explosiveness, excessive pride, insensitivity, domineering, cold-heartedness, lack of emotion, overly competitive, closed mindedness, crudeness, coarseness, messiness, violent, life taking, indifferent, sexual promiscuity.
Compare Ockys description of this man and many gay men you know and draw your own conclusion.
You can “look” hard and clearly be feminine as hell PSYCHOLOGICALLY.
Food for thought.
As with many conversations with gay men on masculinity, masculinity is a subject that is treated like origami…it gets folded up to make something that fits into a blurred gay narrative.
Think about this…
Can a feminine woman who hates the outdoors or outdoor activities, hates sports, hates cars, hates hunting or fishing, hates tools or fixing things around the house, be considered or describe herself as a masculine Tom Boy? I think the answer is no. Most gay men will not allow this equivalent summation as it relates to gays and masculinity.
There is nothing wrong with effeminate gay men just as there is nothing wrong with masculine gay men but it really seems like fem gay men want to change masculinity into something more fem.
This!
Because after seeing who was representing “Masculine Black Gay Men” on that panel discussion back during black pride weekend… Let’s just say the definition of masculine was a little fuzzy for that purpose.
BUT I know women who love/play sports, cars, the outdoors, do-it-yourself projects…and still have plenty of female friends, like to dress up in high heels and watch the real housewives…its not that cut and dry.
But would these ladies say they are Tom Boys even though they like fem stuff too or are you drawing the link that the guy described in the OP can justifiably claim masculine? If anything the ladies you talk about, of which I know several, would just be well rounded. But ask them if they are feminine and they will confirm yes.
I just can’t see a dude trying to convince me he’s really masculine if he’s out here rattling off all the gay slang. I see muscle bound, strong as an ox fem guys in my gym. I see skinny frail manly dudes all the time too.
It’s a whole package thing. But for me it’s more in how one carries themselves that define it.
Male make up and wigs for the Victorian era and togas of the Romans defined what was masculine for their Time. The short shorts and tight bell bottoms of the 1970s were considered masculine too but see a guy in tight ass nut splitters today and most of us would agree that is not masculine now.
Ocky’s question is inspired by real life men that we know who identify as masculine yet fall into all of the descriptions in the post above…so yeah, they exist.
I’m sure. I just don’t have enough sets of eyes to roll the amount required for the appropriate reaction.
Well…for all intents and purposes, these guys are actually masculine, even by our high standards…until they get around certain people or crowds… That’s where the grey area of the Original Question came from. Like if I say something “feminine” its done specifically to be ironic about being gay or masculine. But these guys do it in general attempt to be affable and funny amongst other gay men.
Basically to fit in? Ok I see.
Well I don’t consider myself uber masculine but if the straight guys I work for think I’m straight I’m OK with that.
My use of Gay Speak is for sarcastic and mocking reasons. I definitely do not Queen Out among other gays. That’s annoying to me.
The women I am referring too would consider THEMSELVES “tomboys.” One of my female friends who, from the outside would be considered very feminine, admits she is a “tomboy at heart.” I am not saying that there aren’t clearly more feminine and more masculine people, but I have heard guys I consider masculine, who, in every way shape and form come off as masculine to ME, use gay slang; are we then going to put a count on how much they use it and in what context. Maybe its in jest, maybe not, but it came out of their mouths, are they automatically feminine, not imo. Someone can have no style, not know what the real housewives are, never say an ounce of gay slang and still have more feminine qualities in terms of their personality.
Point taken.
But how one labels themselves and how others perceive them don’t always match. Which basically sums up the OP.
And truth be told there’s a double standard with these issues when it comes to males that ladies get a much wider lane to drive in. It doesn’t take much to veer off of being masculine.
LMFAO!!! “I see muscle bound, strong as an ox fem guys in my gym.”
Ahhh, the good ol’ “Chelsea Queens”. Manhattan Gyms (NYCS Sports Club, Blink Fitness, David Barton, etc, are notorious habitats of these mind fucks. LMAO
Yup.
“YASSSS Huntey! You is LIFTIN’ them weights gurrl. We gon’ have ALL the Boyz up in ar’ yard this summer HUN-TEY! Eeeeow!!”
LMAO real talk I did grind all up on dudes ass at a party. He is ugly but he is put together. Am I giving muscle queens a pass????
You know u wrong for calling that man ugly! The proper term is ‘unfortunate looking’…
muscle queens…got to add that one to my gay dictionary…lmao
Your actions dictate how I perceive you. If all things hold true in this scenario then I would not consider this man “masculine.” I give you some leeway to play around with your friends and banter back and forth but if the assumption of the female pronoun becomes constant you pretty much surrender your man card (atleast in my opinion).
@ The Tor.. I agree with this. And to add to that, the dimension of life attracts like. You are drawn to to what you resonate with. Guilty by association always holds true. When I read the “Secret” I was floored by the point that there is nothing in physics that supports the notion that opposites attract. It may only “appear” that way on the surface. We attract what is dominating in our minds. Your desire to be like or possess. Looking at this topic from that perspective is very revealing.
What’s cool about it all is that modifying your thought process and subsequent “behavior” is all in your control.
If you are acting and feeling a certain way, it has everything to do with the way you choose to THINK. We most often think like the association, be it people , media or otherwise we choose to feed into.
Basically you CAN Call it as you see it. But to do it well you have to see beyond the surface as well.
I love this topic because it explains ALOT of dynamics among gay men.. Some that are hard to figure out if you’re just looking at things from the surface. For instance, like how transgenders or cross dresses get way more dick, than the average masculine appearing/acting male. It all adds up.lol
This is a dangerous path to start stereotyping who is masculine gay and who has feminate qualitys. I have seen the hardest niggas take dick. All am saying is stop trying to feel someone out and just let them be them. Some one not going to show you true self until they get into the bedroom. Labeling is a means to control.
Femininity and bottoming are not mutually exclusive so I don’t know why hard dudes “taking dick” would mean that they are not masculine.
AGREED…
I take issue with the thought that masculine equals strength and feminine equals weakness. Had we changed that process this question would be moot.
Lets start by saying that society’s perception of masculine and feminine change and carry by culture and time. That being said ultimately what is masculine/feminine? One would be hard pressed to confront a kohl wearing pharoah that he were not the epitome of masculinity. Or tell Alexander the great his toga and rosy hued cheeks were not manly.
I’m a firm believer that sexuality is dynamic. Humanity would fall in the numbers 1 and 10. 1, being straight. 10,gay. Most of us fall somewhere in that spectrum. The way those characteristics manifest themselves can be found in speech walk sex etc. But exhibiting those characteristics are not a litmus test for one’s sexuality. I tend to go for Masc with alittle sass. However im sure I’m not alone in finding out the object of my desire who exhibited some questionable traits wasnt gay. Also masculinity is not diametrically opposed to bring a bottom.
Once we change our thought process this would not be of any consequence
I like the way your comment and the points within it cancels the effect of the photo.. This further emhasizes that it more about character,and actions. I looked at the photo and automatically thought “feminine”. That doesn’t have to be true at all. What is more telling are the interests and the association of the subject. These would identify where he leans in the spectrum.
We all have masculine and feminine character potential . Question is , will we tap into the POSITIVE one that lie dormant within.
Positive feminine traits:
Compassion, empathy, intuitiveness, cooperation, communication, kindness, calmness, thoughtfulness, graciousness, warmheartedness, emotionally expressive, able to be happy for others, sustainer, peacemaker, gentleness, patience, nurturing, helpfulness, open mindedness, empathetic, neatness, attentive to detail, creativeness, life giving, sexual fidelity.
Positive masculine traits:
Purposefulness, independence, self-confidence, self-reliance, adventurous, assertiveness, self-discipline, determination, endurance, leadership skills, courage, loyalty, persistence, decisiveness, rationality, inventiveness, ambitious, dependability, provider, worldly view.
The only part of that description that is inherently feminine to me is the referring to men as female pronouns and even that is dependent on tone and context (is he using that when someone else might use the N-word, is it meant to insult, etc.?) The problem with judging a person’s interests on whether they’re masculine or feminine is they’re subjective to a lot of things such as culture, counter-culture, class, etc. Depending on who you ask, white collar workers are “feminine” compared to blue-collar workers. Upper middle class to rich people tend to come off across as more feminine than working class.There’s nothing inherently feminine about watching reality TV; while I personally don’t like to reward people for behaving badly by giving them the attention they’re craving, I’ve seen men and women of all levels of the masculinity/femininity spectrum enjoy the same stuff, be it on television or watching someone get into a fist fight outside of the club over some petty drama.
We also live in a time where image is more important than the reality of our circumstance. “Pretty boy” metrosexuals are in. Fashion is important. Even Jay Z is rapping about Tom Ford, and looking at his finger nails, it seems like he gets manicures regularly and I don’t think anyone is dismissing his masculinity.
Dudes keep playing the “but what abouts” and “the but what ifs” instead of accepting the masculine and feminine dynamics for what they are.
IMO mostly fem or soft gay men do this. It’s almost as if they are ashamed of being fem.
AND equating being a bottom or on the receiving end of a penis equals fem is beyond mind boggling.
Thats because in this “Drake” day & age, everybody wants to be a part of everything, therefore lines need to be blurred in order for everyone to be able to be whatever it is that they claim to be. Hence, I can refer to other men as “biiiiiitch” and “Ms. Thing”, and “HUN-TEY”, “ki ki” with my girlfriends from work at Happy Hour and shopping excursions, know the lyrics (and choreography) to EV-VER-RY Beyoncé, Rihanna song (not one or two, but EVERY song), lust over Chris Brown’s (old news ass) d#$k and talk about what I want him to do to me, dress in gender androgynous and/or blatant female attire (heels included), wear women’s fragrances, have a blatantly effeminate voice, and still demand to be referred to as “masculine”. Why…because “masculinity is a Social Construct” and therefore is subjective from person to person. SMGDH. It IS subjective to a damned point and any ONE of the aforementioned characteristics (with the exception of female attire and heels) does not denote effeminacy (hell, I exhibit one or two “metrosexual” traits”, but some people take that shit to the ABsolute limits.
I’ll just say there’s a reason one doesn’t often see two fem bottoms mistaking each other for masculine tops.
LOL!! I think the guys that take these convos to heart (and there’s some nikkaz severely Butthurt over other dudes’ vision of masculinity, from what I’ve read) forget that all this talk we do about whats masc and whats not is irrelevant, on an individual basis. If I see a dude that (in my mind) is effeminate, who the fuck cares. The only place that that would have any real effect on someone is when it comes down to personal attraction, which we all know we have no control over someone being attracted to us. If you think you’re masculine, then kudos. If another muhfuka thinks you’re a big girl, oh the f#%k well. Move on. We can argue masculinity ’til we all blue in the face, we’ll never agree 100% on the parameters of it. Those of us that are old school, have more rigid lines of perceived masculinity than (most of) the newer generation of dudes.
Good thoughts homie. Those damn millennial’s hahaha
@ocky done started a fire! got errbody n they mamas chiming in.
good shit!
I’ve been watching a lot of Black Gay Web Series lately and I’ve scientifically determined that masculinity (or lack thereof) is all in the wrists. The less you have, the more loose your wrists are… Science, Bitch.
“UGHHH!! Chyle…YOU, is TIRED”
http://giphy.com/gifs/eye-roll-sigh-annoyed-38qj76We5E5cQ
LMAO!!
Lmao @Nick is so grimey.
@Nick I love the research…it explains a lot
Back in the day masculine men who were deeply immersed in typical gay culture were referred to as “butch queens” and would be considered less masculine if their dates ever caught them letting their hair down and “cutting up”. These days the lines have been blurred so much that masculinity is now defined by how well you can pass for being straight, whether you’re deeply immersed in typical gay culture or not.
I look at it like this, if he has a generous dose of the right “equipment” and he acquits himself nicely in the bedroom… I don’t give a F**k!
Interesting statement my dude.
I try to keep an open mind but once you start using “girl, she, & her” to refer to yourself or other men, you’ve given up on classic definitions of masculine. When someone poses the question “are you masculine” 9.9/10 times they’re working off of classic gender roles. The dude in question should respond “i dont subscribe to traditional gender roles” or “I have a broader definition of masculine” or something. But to say “yes” is a lie.